BIM4HOUSING: ADVISORY WORKING GROUP MEETING 23-05-2024

BIM4Housing: Advisory Working Group Meeting 23-05-2024

RICHARD …A lot of people there and we covered a lot of ground, but it mostly boiled down to knowledge management, we touched on Ai in the meeting. So the idea of today is to go and delve a little deeper into that and look at some of the tools that are available that people don’t necessarily know are available. Debbie keeps up on that to a large extent, so we thought it was worth going through that and then having discussion around the pros and cons and if anybody knows of anything else.

DEBBIE Just so everyone understands my background, I was an engineer a long time ago, I now specialise in the AI area of competency management and knowledge management. A lot of people wouldn’t think to go to the competency world to think that you might get some of your AI knowledge management problems solved, but I’ll bring that out as we go along. Just at the moment in terms of the Building Safety Act, there is actually no knowledge management agenda underneath it. We’ve got this very complex landscape of regulations, guidance, often overlapping or competing. PAS which relate to product processes or people, a whole lot of competency frameworks etc and all of these, some of them are still in process and evolving.

We know there is no shortage of evidence that there is still a lack of sector what I call knowledge and knowhow concerning the Building Safety Act and particularly how to embed it in terms of the why, what, how, when, where and who of the building safety activities across complex supply chains. So there’s no knowledge management agenda from the owners of regulations guidance PAS. BSI do have what they call a smartification programme around their standards and they’ve reviewed the sort of work that I do, but they’re behind the curve in terms of semantic interoperability you need to make sense of knowledge. And there is clear demand for people who want to better be able to understand the Building Safety Act in a simple human manner which they’re not able to at the moment.

I’ve talked to a few people in HSE who are in AI groups there and maybe beginning to look at this knowledge challenge, but at the moment there doesn’t seem to be any kind of vision of what I would call an AI spec-based knowledge-based approach to solving this which is the sort of work that we also do in the competency management domain. This isn’t what I’m calling it, I’m calling it BSA knowledge as a service, it’s what we need if we want to change the landscape. Does everyone understand that? Does anyone challenge that? Are there any challenges that I haven’t considered? I just tried to highlight the top ones otherwise the list could be endless.

NEIL YEOMANS I’m curious as to understand how, obviously the BSA has been written in a way to be completely open and non-compliance based, it’s supposed to be risk management system based so is therefore applicable to any building in any scenario. So I’m curious as to how this would work in that arena.

DEBBIE That’s a very good question. I’ll come back to it after a couple of slides, and I’ll put that in as one of the challenges because I do think that is one. Just to say what Knowledge as a Service is, it’s trying to find a way to actually make sense of all of the different knowledge sources to do with the Building Safety Act, be that a regulation, secondary legislation, guidance, associated PAS or competence frameworks. Because all of those are needed to help people know why, what, how, but obviously bringing in your last comment it’s also about when, where and whom which is different depending on what the building is, what the risks is, what the context is. So that sort of context aware piece is very important in here.

And digitising knowledge is not only about making it easy to access, transforming it, being it easier to interpret to contextualise, but it’s also about making it much more accessible, relevant and actionable. If you look at the competency part of this which is part of the puzzle, anything to do with the competence framework and standard, you might get it in Excel but most of the time it’s a PDF document, completely inert and not very useful. Digitising this should be part of the digitalisation agenda, is it? I don’t know. HSE are talking about it, there’s a new government group set up to do looking at more digitisation around knowledge, but it’s also very early days around that.

And obviously from an economic point of view knowledge is actually an information good in that it has certain attributes and the more it’s used and reused and repurposed the more value you get from it. And once you have digitised it, it makes it very cheap to reproduce and disseminate etc. And just to say when I talk about a knowledge base, I’m not talking about something that is a content or document management system. We’re seen there’s a lot of repositories, people like Matt Hodges-Long’s repository of documentation. A repository is a good start, but it’s not really intelligent enough to allow people to get the kind of know-how that they need out of it. It’s much more a repository of structured assertions, definitions and their logical relationships.

I didn't want to go too deep technically into knowledge bases and all the rest, I’ll show an example of one, but this is an area that a colleague and I do quite a bit of work in. I’m next going to jump into what’s out there at the moment. Obviously most of you are aware of the work that Jarek has been doing in terms of his Miro board of trying to make sense of this in terms of understanding building safety regulations. We’ve got another organisation called OneEngage who’s also tried to how do all of these regulations, legislation etc all link together. This is an indication that people are trying to make sense of the landscape to start with, but again it doesn’t answer my question of know why, when, how, whom etc. And I think those W questions are very important.

We’ve got Matt Hodges-Long who’s got his Resource Centre and then there’s other things that are going on. There’s two ChatGPT-like tools that are out there, one called ConstructAI. You can go in there and query it quite intelligently about the Building Safety Act. As you see I’ve put the links below so people can go and play with that. I’m in the process of talking with this lot in terms of how they’re going about it. Obviously, there’s large language models behind this, but there’s also some other things. There’s another one called Athena, not quite such a nice interface. This one is drawing directly from the HSE API on the government regulations. This one I’ve tested a lot because I’m partnering with them in an innovation bid. So that’s two ChatGPT-like things where you can go in and ask normal human questions about the Building Safety Act.

They seem to be pretty reliable, pretty consistent, but for me that’s one thing that would be useful for the group to test and socialise. But I know with Athena that it is being used by quite a few actors in the built environment, it’s also being used in universities to help upskill people around the Building Safety Act and it’s being used in some construction apprenticeships to help them understand the Building Safety Act. So it is actually being used in the sector, but again who needs to know about this, why do they need to know about it etc. This is an example of the work that I do. As you can see it’s come through innovate-type funding. We take any type of competency framework or standard and we put it into a competence knowledge base, so you can do various things from it. You can abstract things from it, you can compare things, associate things, you can see how things are linked, it’s got very clever semantic capabilities underneath it.

No large language models, it’s not necessary, we’re combining machine learning with different semantic AI technologies and knowledge engineering. But in terms of our landscape here we’ve got PAS, we’ve got the 12 different competency working groups, that’s going to result in hundreds of competence frameworks which are often derived from National Occupational Standards and iFATE Occupational Standards. There’s also standards around sustainability, innovation, digital, there’s a new one just come out from AI from the Turing Institute on AI competencies and that’s going to be customised for the built environment. All of these are coming out, so we have this proliferation. There’s no digitalisation from the industry competence committee, if we even know what they’re actually doing.

Our approach is we put it all in competence knowledge base. This competence knowledge base is architected for any system of competence and that’s a very important thing. We’re just finishing the NOS one and now we can compare National Occupational Standards in the built environment to iFATE Occupational Standards which no one else has been able to achieve yet, so it’s a first of its kind.

RICHARD Could you explain what you mean by that?

DEBBIE If you want to compare an occupational standard from iFATE which underpins a lot of the technical education and qualifications like apprenticeships, but not just apprenticeships, you want to compare it to a National Occupational Standard, you can compare it at the standard level or you can compare it statement by statement to see how much overlap or similarities there is. Because if you look at working group 2, for example, nearly all of their competence frameworks, which they’re working with CITB on, are all derived from a combination of NOS and iFATE. But there is no traceability of this and they’re making stupid mistakes by taking a duty statement out which is quite important considering the Building Safety Act is about the duty regime.

They’re taking duties and putting them in knowledge statements and stupid things like that because people don’t understand what they’re dealing with. You’ve got people who are playing around in the world of competence who know nothing about competency management and not AI. So those are some of the examples I come to and then these are some of the possible actions. Do we push HSE to consider more of a knowledge management approach here? Do we take a task of defining what we think good knowledge management might look like for our audience? And why do we socialise these tools and initiatives, do we collaborate to try and get some kind of sector knowledge sharing platform or knowledge base.

As we discussed in the last thing, do we take on a group as a role of experts to try and standardise some interpretations that are needed to seek clarity? But if you do that without any knowledge management we’ll just be adding another knowledge source to the chaos.

RICHARD Yeah, and that’s kind of the route that we’ve been taking throughout, trying to standardise.

DEBBIE And if we’re leading anything in this domain who are we aiming it to benefit and why? So it’s not for me to say what’s in scope here, or not, it’s just to say what I found out in the landscape and what is sensible.

JACK DEARLOVE I have a question, Debbie, because I think you’re right on the money there. Often in construction we get lost in our little areas who we’re talking to, so I raised my head out of this group and was looking elsewhere and I noticed that there’s quite a few groups looking at the Building Safety Act and trying to do something similar, like Build UK have got some groups going on. Obviously, the FIS had some things going on, CIO I believe is the other one.

So I think there’s a lot of people trying to answer the difficult questions, I don’t think anyone has got the answers yet. I still think there is a lot of value in this group but it’s like you say, understanding the landscape and where does this objective sit within that and what area are we fulfilling that the others aren’t, which is quite a difficult question to answer.

DEBBIE It is. I’m aware of some of the stuff that Build UK do, I work with FIS, so I can add that back in. What specifically around CIOB, I have seen they’ve been doing quite a lot of stuff on LinkedIn, but I haven’t seen anything that I would call is anything intelligent of the knowledge side of the Building Safety Act from them.

JACK DEARLOVE I suppose you’ve hit the nail on the head again, using the word ‘intelligent’. I’ve been incited to Building Safety Act guidance with the CIOB, so they’re running a level of training, it wouldn’t necessarily mean that it’s intelligent. The BFIS, Ian McIlroy is an absolutely phenomenal individual, but again, what he presents is intelligent obviously and what he delivers is backed by his intelligence, but maybe the gap isn’t necessarily a group. Although the one that is creating a group is Build UK, I believe they’re creating, they haven’t used the words that i’d use which is like a safe are for experts to share honestly.

DEBBIE But they do have their publications that they bring out with their updates, so I’ll add in some of that to the deck and some of the stuff that’s going on training wise. I wasn’t going to be concentrating too much on training because everyone thinks training is a solution without actually sorting the knowledge management issue out at the moment. You can’t prove that most of the training programmes are directly inferred or related or drive from the Acts or guidance and that’s what we need.

JACK DEARLOVE I think there’s still real value in having a group of experts that can be questioned and share knowledge, I still think there is a gap in the market there. But like I say, I just had a look around and I noticed those three that were doing it.

DEBBIE And then I think related to it you have these AI groups which people like James Bowles from 4D who’s set up an AI group in the built environment. HSE, I’ve just spoken to their guy who’s leading the AI group. So there’s various people who are in the AI group, but they seem to be just open exploratory things and I keep saying to them ‘this is a really good thing to concentrate on’. A lot of them weren’t aware of some of those ChatGPT-like tools that I’ve put out there. And the other thing is there’s also stuff that’s going on from Innovate, which I can’t say yet, but there may be some Innovate led initiative around sort of more AI knowledge management, which wouldn’t just be construction. Have any of you heard of the BridgeAI programme?

BridgeAI is an Innovate and UKRAi led initiative, I sit on the advisory board. The four target sectors include construction, so there is a lot of money going into AI in the built environment and there is funding. There’s free upskilling as well around AI, they also have a skills & talent, so I’m trying to get them to do a knowledge management AI group. So that might be useful if we do because it might provide us with some funding because it’s all very well what we can do, but if we could derive some funding to prove some of this is possible, then I think it’s sensible. The gentleman who raised the risk system-based question, how would that in your view change what's needed from managing all of these knowledge sources to do with the Building Safety Act intelligently? Not as a solution, as a need.

NEIL YEOMANS As a need from a client, it’s probably best to explain, what you’ve just talked me through would be useful as a client and then where the gap would be as me being trying to purchase it. As a client I think I would find the things you’ve just talked to effectively being able to put into an AI, do I need to register my building, and put the measurements in of the building or even just a photograph or whatever, I can imagine that being useful. So that would replace solicitors or, potentially, engineers. The issue about the risk management system part of it is the Building Safety Act is just silence on it, other than to require one. The guidance says you should be applying something like 45001 or 9997.

That is so open to the variables within a sizeable organisation, so an Ai would need to understand what the difference and expectations from a right to manage, Ma and Pa have one building compared to a Sanctuary or a Clarion who’ve got dozens of the things, and the organisational complexity that that entails. The procurement complexity that happens in the social housing sector vs the private sector. And all of those sorts of multifaceted pieces that are so dependent on hundreds of variables, I could understand how AI would be amazing for that, but none of it is prescribed in the BSA. So if the focus is on the BSA and subsequent regulations and guidance then there would be a gap there. The whole point of the systemic approach is to add a human in there to weigh risks and what not, so it’s not necessarily to say that this isn’t incredibly valuable, to be able to replace solicitors would be immensely valuable.

DEBBIE If you follow what’s going on with AI in the legal session, it’s moving so fast, it’s enormous. Already more and more cases are being dealt with by AI, so it is there. In some ways because the regulations are designed as they are as the regulations, doing this in the competence area around all of these wretched PAS and competence frameworks and standards is easier to do because you can get to being…action this. As a starting point it’s an easier point to do it, but equally we have also taken other ISO standards and all the rest and extracted those using AI quite successfully and been very clear about what’s an actual requirement and what’s a possibility. So, there are ways of doing this and there are some good lessons to be learned from work that’s going on around digitalising planning and planning and compliance.

So there are other domains that we can bring in that have learnt some lessons in this, but at the moment even if we could make more available tools like those ChatGPT ones with perhaps some more refinement or testing of them, that could be helpful as a minimum.

NEIL YEOMANS I’m from Orbit Housing, we’ve got 45,000 properties, 25 HRBs, so not massive but enough skin in the game to feel the pain. There are questions around, another classic example would be do I need to run through Building Control for this particular situation. It raises another point that was striking me in the head as you were talking, I’m not entirely sure the BSR knows the answer to some of these. I’m in the room with them, I’m still assisting back on the golden thread guidance, so I’m helping them write some of that and it’s pretty clear that there are certain facets that they haven’t made decisions on and they’re in learning mode just as much as we are.

DEBBIE Yeah, but then the knowledge management system has to say what’s available is this. At the end of the day this isn’t taking away human decision making or people doing it. If there’s not an exact answer to the question then you give it a low confidence score, that’s what we do in the competence domain, depending on the quality of the knowledge source you use a confidence index as a proxy. So you get a result saying this is Level 2.

NEIL YEOMANS That wasn’t where my mind was going, my mind was going to bloody hell, this would be useful for the Regulator, literally to say what are our low confidence confluences across all of this. And it almost gives them a gap analysis of where they haven’t given enough guidance and they can judiciously go through it and say well, actually we don’t want to give guidance there because that is a management system thing.

Or, oh, we haven’t given enough information for people to actually apply to Building Control. Unfortunately, we had a fire in one of our buildings, we’re one of the first in the country (if not the first) to apply for Building Control to do something major to our building. And we found that they haven’t actually got anything, they’ve had to invent on the back foot a template for us, and it’s not quite there yet. And a tool for them, when we were talking about clients, the BSR might be chomping at the bit for something like this.

DEBBIE I tried to get in touch with another senior guy at Innovate who’s been talking with HSE on them taking a kind of knowledge management approach, but I couldn’t get hold of him this morning to get an update. But I have fed in some of this thinking to them, I haven’t shared any detailed work that we’ve got because I want some IP protection before I do.

JACK DEARLOVE In that example that Neil had there, it’s great to have the IP and the tools that we’re discussing, but also if you’ve got an expert group we could share ideas. In my previous role I owned the golden thread at a Tier 1 main contractor and I built up the process by which we’d develop that golden thread using expert consultants in building safety regulations. We’d then build up what we need for each one of those buildings, what do we need in terms of storage, what did we need to keep for 15 or 30 years, the whole process around that.

When we checked that with the BSR they weren’t necessarily ready to actually interpret or understand what we’d given to them. But if we had, as well as the tools that we’re talking about, an actual knowledge group, it could be hey, has anyone had this experience, what do you do. And I’d say we’ve done the same and so what we did is created the capture method so that we captured enough that was cost effective to still deliver the project but protected us long-term. Just in case when the building regulators catch up they check and they go, yeah, you guys have got everything in the background. So that might be just as valuable as a tool.

DEBBIE Well, it is, because if you’re doing an audit, if the fact that you’ve used some tools that are available and you’ve used an expert group, you’ve tried hard to do the job and answer the question. And that’s traceable which is important. I’ll take it as an action to try and get an update from this contact around what HSE are doing or looking at. I don’t know whether it’s going to go under this AI group they have already, or whether they’re setting up a separate group or initiative. Certainly, at last, this AI knowledge management piece is coming to the fore, I’ve been waiting for it to get to the table, but it’s coming.

NEIL YEOMANS Once you’ve got all the protections that you need, to your point, Jack. For my sins I chair the National Housing Federation’s National Building Safety Group that has two dozen of the larger housing associations knocking around the place, messing around with building safety these days. I’m more than happy to bring you along to talk about this thought process.

DEBBIE Fine, I’ve done some work with Direct Works and I did do a big social housing project, it finished the middle of last year, we worked with six housing associations and we put in a competency management and compliance platform, jolly bloody hard work. I spent more of my time educating people about what competence was and competency to comply, so it was not an easy process. But if you can make the heavy lifting easier for these people, if you can just say to people OK, we know in social housing you have these type of operatives, they do 71 tasks. Just update their competency profiles and context of those tasks with anything they have to meet in terms of all of these array of competency frameworks, press the button, that’s what they need.

They don’t need any more than to do that, just give me what people do, give me the context, you tell me what the right profile is. That’s what we need to do, it needs to be as simple as that and that’s possible now. If it’s more heavy lifting than that, people haven’t got time to go through all of these frameworks and then find, oh, well actually I’ve already got people who are qualified in that because they’ve done that apprenticeship. if you haven’t made it clear, it’s just a mess, absolutely shocking. And as for the industry competence committee, God knows what they’re doing.

NEIL YEOMANS Just one more steer for you, Debbie. There is another organisation that’s springing to mind called the Compliance Workbook, they’ve got an interesting approach to competence. They’re mostly focused on old school compliance stuff around electrical safety, gas checks and all of that sort of stuff. But what they do is they have a way of reading all of the certificates, so effectively it’s a PDF reader, and what it does is compares it to the existing standards to see whether the readings you get match, all of the random stuff that electricians and gas engineers do. Ryan Dempsey is the guy behind that.

DEBBIE I’d say what he does is very complimentary to what we do, it’s not competing. I’ve been meaning to catch up with him.

NEIL YEOMANS He compliments what you’re doing perfectly because what you’re looking at here is the skills and knowledge part and he’s looking at the experience and behaviour part.

DEBBIE We don’t just deal with the knowledge side, we can actually deal with the data side. We also deal with voice and dialogue. You’re not going to get a 59-year-old roofer giving you a CV, but if you ask him what he’s done, where he’s done it and all the rest. So we’ve done that before, we can mind voice data as well. I’ve just been showing you the knowledge side, we also deal with all of the unstructured data side, we can take any source of unstructured data about a person. But also we deal with things like we profile a product, a process, a project, a team, a person, a job, a role, it’s much broader. So if we know a product does this we can infer what competencies are related to a product, so it’s much broader than just knowledge, skills and behaviours and experience. We actually look at 13 dimensions of competence, not just the ones that they’re doing, we take 8 perspectives to competency management.

We’ve been doing this for 10 years, a lot of it has been derived from other sectors like oil and gas, military, where I did a lot of my hard training. I’m not a military person, but I have worked in that environment a lot. But I think the thing is there’s actually more going on in the landscape than people realise, but we haven’t got any way of bringing the best parts and putting it together as what I’d call a set of digital utilities which can help people which is what’s needed. If no one's got the time or the effort to do all of this. Richard, I’m very glad that we’ve had this because it’s useful. I will take the slides that I’ve got and I’d like to add in some of the points that have been made, some of the other things that we know are going on, just to broaden it out.

And then we can share it and then if we feel that we want to run it with a bigger group we do it. It would also be useful to see if George has anything else coming out, if anybody else has anything that they’ve heard at the Building Safety Regulator event yesterday. I’d be keen to know if anything was even raised in this domain in that event yesterday, I suspect not, I couldn’t see it on the agenda.

RICHARD Let me just ask Will and Jeremy, have you got any points that you’d like to make on this?

WILL FRANKS Nothing from me really. I've just been making some notes in the background there. I appreciate we said the slides are gonna be sent out and I've been having a look at some of these tools. It’s all new to me. I'm absolutely fascinated by some of this stuff. I'm joining from Adelard, we are a system safety consultancy. So we help train people up to make safety cases and we have a software tool that people use to compile and to maintain their cases going forwards. So I agree with what we said at the start about BSA knowledge and that really people are still in the dark on this. The thing that interested me at the conference was understanding where we fit into the context.

This regime has been in place…the law got passed 2 years ago, it’s slowly coming into force in reality, but this is a couple of years now and people are still murky, confused about their duties, their responsibilities, mixed messaging. I think some people were a bit diasspointed at the conference, they wanted a bit more tangible, hard recommendations.

DEBBIE I offered to speak and show them something tangible.

WILL FRANKS A lot of it was quite wooly. The one bit that got a lot of people’s attention was that the golden thread standard is going to be published next month which a lot of people were happy to hear because people have been waiting for that for a long time. But a lot of it was still quite wooly, it’s a moving feast all of this sort of stuff. The safety case standard is not going to be published. There’s some recommendations, there is a safety case tool kit, but the idea of having this is what a good safety case looks like for housing, that’s not forthcoming. I think anything that is going to help people with this is definitely of interest and as a team we’re going to have to look into these sorts of AI tools and help people to demystify it a bit. So thank you. it’s really interesting.

DEBBIE Is the golden thread standard going to be a BSI standard, or a PAS, or what?

NEIL YEOMANS I’m helping to write it. It’s effectively published by the Construction Leadership Council, but we’ve written it in conjunction with the BSP and DLUHC, so they’ve been in all of our sessions giving us a steer here and there, and then we’ve been giving them a steer. It’s quite a collective bit of work. It’s not going to be as granular as people are craving, but it’s more granular than anything they’ve had before and the idea is that it’s a starter for ten, it will be an iterative process where we keep going back and keep going back.

RICHARD So, it’s a step in the right direction, but not much more than that.

NEIL YEOMANS From the conversations I’ve had with people who haven’t really thought about the golden thread and starting to tackle it, it gives them a really good steer. Those people, they’ll find it very useful. For people that have been on the BIM and you guys, you’ll probably think this is trying to teach a set of five-year-olds on what to do. Part of the driver for us writing it was, when I mentioned the Ma and Pa bands out there, there are a lot of right-to-manage directors that are currently being ripped off by a lot of consultants that do really need this steer.

So the way I’ve described it in the session, and I think it’s an analogy that works, is they are trying to fly a 747 and we’ve sort of written the guide for the people that are trying to fly a 747 aeroplane. But there are people out there, like me, who are trying to fly a flight of 747s and the challenge is much more difficult. We’ve probably written it for about 25% of it will be useful to the fleet flyers, but it will be very useful for someone who’s just got a single plane that they’re trying to keep in the air. And that’s why it will keep getting cycled through and continuously improved.

JEREMY MALET I’ve picked up on a few conversations a little while back, I’ve been involved on the precious fire door working groups. And then recently I’ve been taking a lot of interest in the Building Safety Act and not a long time ago picked up on a few conversations and the kind of wants to be able to share the information so everyone gets what they need to make buildings safer. So I set up a little group on LinkedIn which gathered a bit of momentum and I know BIM4Housing kindly put on a working group session as well which I brought people in to the table on that. I was intrigued to listen in and thank you for all of the conversation which I’ll take back and hopefully AI or Building Safety Act knowledge tools, it’s great, so we all get consistency.

DEBBIE I think even if we had a kind of map of some kind of who’s doing what in AI around this domain would be helpful, so people know who to go and talk to. Who’s doing what, because often it can be better to collaborate with somebody who’s got something that’s going to help you do some of the heavy lifting to start with or compliments what you’re doing.

JEREMY MALET Absolutely, there’s nothing wrong with standing on the shoulders of giants.

DEBBIE Partly, there is more that’s out there and when I’ve spoken to people, either at Innovate or BridgeAI they’re all surprised by this because basically they think the built environment has very low AI adoption. And it does compared to other sectors, and it does compared to other sectors, but actually there is stuff going around project management and all the rest, there’s some areas that are moving quite fast and there’s others that aren’t. I’m not sure we need too much longer, with less people you get through things and I didn’t want to get into anything too deep without us deciding what we want to do.

RICHARD As you said, it’s been very valuable because it’s honed the next meeting, we’ve had a lot of very good input. But I definitely think it’s worth doing to the larger group. For any that aren’t aware, we’ve set up a new group/organisation called BIM In Asset Management which is similar to BIM4Housing, the only difference being is that it covers across all sectors. We had a launch meeting on Monday and we’ve got our next meeting on the 17th June. Invites will be going out probably today so keep and eye out for that and if you’re involved in asset management or use asset information come along. It was a very lively session on Monday, and it promises to be a very exciting group. We’ve already set up three workstreams, one in business case, one in digital and one in interoperability and Jack is one of the leaders of the interoperability workstream.

DEBBIE I’m going to update the slides and then I’ll share them. And then if I’ve missed anything, anyone can say or add it to it and then we’ve got a deck that we can take forward.