Type 4 Creating a Robust Fire Door Management System Meeting

Type 4 Creating a Robust Fire Door Management System Meeting

RICHARD Basically, this is a couple of pages of a document that was done for the Health Service. Probably 90% of it is gonna be just exactly the same for resi. The difference will be obviously just changing terms. But it's a question of looking through that, is there anything that we want to add or change or subtract from the work that Alan has already done? So, applying the three types of inspections is a key element to achieving a fire door compliant building. As part of a holistic and robust fire door management system, the following list of recommended actions is provided as guidance. OK, so first is decide on budget and timescale. This is potentially a major exercise likely to be both high level of commitment and resource. It should be noted that in an accurate cost is unlikely to be determined prior to the action plan being implemented due to a lack of initial information. Does that make sense? Anybody got any comments on that part?

MARK GROVE I think for me deciding on a budget and timescale depends on what you're budgeting to do over what period. So I agree it needs to be done but you’ve got to decide what you’re doing first.

RICHARD Yeah, I see what you're saying, it’s chicken and egg, isn't it? It's part of the planning…that’s part of what you're doing is what's the time scale and the money. But you need to know that. Let me make a note of that.

PAUL COLECLOUGH You’d like to think as well that the more inspections you do carry out over a period that the less budget that you'll need going forward. RICHARD Yeah, economies of scales, that's a good one, actually, because they're bound to play in something like this. PAUL COLECLOUGH You can get a rough estimate as well with regards budget, so ideally your door you’re looking at you intumescent strips, your door closer, etc. So you can kind of gauge me from my contract to ask them to give me a cost for say adjusting the door closer or renewing a door closer, changing an intumescent strip. So you can kind of get a rough ballpark figure about what each kind of repair costs roughly.

RICHARD let’s follow through and see if it is a question of the order of the thing. Decide on the key players and their roles in terms of creating and delivering the system, probably involving both internal and external personnel. Does anybody disagree with that?

MARK GROVE No, I think that's right. I think what we’re talking about is building this digital area where all of our data is coming in. We’re talking about what is this animal and who takes control of each aspect of that.

RICHARD Absolutely. It’s responsibility, that’s what it comes down to. OK, so we’re good with that. Agree a targeted action plan. OK, acknowledging budget, access and time constraints, it would be reasonable to adopt a pretty pragmatic approach to establish a reasonable time frame in which to complete the required works. Any approach taken in this respect should be underpinned by the risk assessment process. Also, it would be advisable to discuss the plan with any authority having jurisdiction (the Fire & Rescue service, insurance etc.) to ensure they are satisfied with the process timescales. And, I would think, with the plan itself. If an action plan and time scales are agreed and adopted, this should be reviewed at regular intervals by senior management, one to monitor progress and two where necessary to amend timeframes for completion. For example, where there is a change of risk level or change of use within the building, i.e. an outpatient area. Ah, OK, that’s a bit that he’s missed, outpatient area. So that needs to be changed. What about that one?

SANDRA CLARK That seems reasonable. It sounds like on par with the fire risk assessment that you recognise what the risk is and you give it a priority and time scale as appropriate so that you're not wasting your precious resources on non-urgent stuff when there's urgent stuff to get done. RICHARD Yeah, I think that’s key with that one. Which is why it says targeted. It’s about prioritising. SANDRA CLARK And I think that it's already in the language and processes that we're already using with fire risk assessments, so I think it falls in quite nicely.

KEITH JAMES Richard, before you move on, can I just go back to 4.3. I just wanted to point out that the procedure which George showed earlier on, which is basically the work content in FM is by SFG 20 is split into procedures that the procedure is a set of tasks each numbered. A procedure is a complete set of tasks that are done at a certain time frequency. But the point I wanted to make that might be relevant to 4.3 is that that procedure carries a skill level, a competency, and so in assigning key players they need to be sure to comply with that requirement, the requirement needs defining so they can be mapped to it basically. RICHARD In terms of their competence levels? KEITH JAMES Yes. RICHARD Yeah, that’s a very good point.

RICHARD So on 4.4, has anybody got anything on that? Obviously, the outpatient area is a something he slipped, we’ll take that out and it will be a different example. KEITH JAMES So, if you've got an action plan, presumably that's not time based. So it's simply saying do these things in this order, or do these procedures in this order and then leave it to the project manager to figure out what resources he requires to do that, what time scales he's got. RICHARD Well, I don't know. If you're talking about a regime for inspection, that will be given time scales, it wouldn't be doing them when you feel like it, it would be every two months or one month or six months or whatever, there would be a time scale in that respect, wouldn't there? KEITH JAMES Yes, there would. My point is that the resourcing will then be decided according to the size of the building and whatever timescale you've got to do the job in.

RICHARD Let’s go onto 4.5. So create a unique set of fire door protocols for the organisation which would outline all of the required actions, responsibilities and details, and be used to communicate and share those actions with others. Everything stems from this, so it needs to be carefully considered written and agreed by senior managers. Key elements will include how information is to be stored, shared and updated, managed by an overview process committee for ensuring actions are delivered.

KEITH JAMES So that's implying some sort of a control mechanism with feedback to say, yes, this item has been done, doesn't it? RICHARD Yes, absolutely. MARK GROVE It’s the area we've been developing where it's all cloud based with access permissions, everything is held in that cloud. So anyone can access it from wherever they are, whenever, and every action that's done in there is logged. So you've got a log path of who signed in, what they did and that can't be changed. So it's to me it's looking at that sort of protocol that it's heavily controlled, can't be changed, it's date stamped etc. So that information is available, but if anyone does anything to it or adds to it etc, again who does it is logged.

RICHARD 4.6. Implement an audit of fire door procurement systems and the introduction of type 1 inspection for all new doors. So that's basically right. So this is about procurement and the type 1 inspection. The importance of these cannot be overemphasised as they will have an immediate impact on both compliance and future maintenance cost.

MARK GROVE Again, for me it's something we're working on currently where manufacturers log all of the specifications that have been requested for it to be manufactured against, along with all of their third-party certification, all the permissible repairs you can make to it based on that certification. So it's coming right from the manufacturer, that data needs to be put in and can't be changed. So once that's logged, that's what the product was and everything about it is in the system ready for the next set of people in the chain.

KEITH JAMES Should we somewhere be identifying how faults are logged and then how that follow up happens to make sure that they are fixed, or it's resurveyed? RICHARD Yes. We’re covering the whole gamut of the thing, so I think we seem to be going in order. I think you’re right, but we’re probably going to come onto that in a minute.

RICHARD Let’s look at 4.7. Create a fire door schedule on a building-by-building basis, comparing the conditions of the doors with their importance (criticality). The existing door will be type 2 inspected…right, OK, this is the existing ones…not only comparing to its condition with regulatory requirements, but also the importance of the door in terms of what it's protecting and therefore what level of compliance is suitable and sufficient. By doing so…this is what you are saying, Sandra…by doing so a fire door action priority can be established commencing cost-effective measured fire door improvement seeks to significantly reduce risk from year one. Not only actual risk of fire, but also in terms of protecting the organisation and its management as it provides documentation that can be shared with external auditors in compliance with SFL Article 17 and 38. Showing a coherent fire door management system with the commitment to actual year on year improvement. OK, so we're coming on to compliance and we're moving from installation to ongoing. Type 2 inspections are for existing buildings, existing installations. So OK, anybody got any comments on that one?

OK, let's cut and print that one and move to 4.8. Carry out an audit of functional fire door inspection and PPM activities to ensure that those doors being type 1 and 2 inspected are then handed over to a system that can effectively manage and maintain the doors in terms of both working efficiency and compliance, OK. So, that's basically a data system, but also logging repairs and maintenance issues. This is a very good document he's done actually, isn't it? Carry out fire door compartment surveys for each building. Clearly, the doors cannot be treated in isolation as they only form one component of the overall fire compartmentation. However, a lot of the passive fire compartment issues will be one off remediation or replacement costs that we do not require ongoing PPM. Compartmentation, this is always a fun one. Do you think that covers the requirement for that?

SIMON KELLY No. The one glaringly obvious error in it.  It does require ongoing PPM. Fire stopping an hour…there’s a sparky or someone come and put a new cable through it or pipe through it and doesn't make good correctly. So it does need checking on a regular basis. It requires ongoing PPM if you’ve got a, typically, electrician, someone fitting pipes passing services through the fire stopping and they don't repair it or don't repair it properly.

RICHARD So at any point in its life, if it could have external intervention from… SANDRA CLARK I wouldn't necessarily say that was PPM, I would normally call that inspection because you’d only carry out kind of planned maintenance. SIMON KELLY Yeah, but that's implying a one-off remediation which would suggest you're only gonna inspect it once.

RICHARD There are 3 levels of inspection: there’s type 1 which is for new installation, type 2 which is for existing fire doors, and those two are all singing and dancing thorough inspections. On the basis that it’s had a type 1 or type 2 inspection, type 3 inspections are not needed to be done by such levels of competence as the first two, but I guess that they would be competent enough that they would see if an electrician had put a wire through it. SIMON KELLY Yeah, but that's not talking about necessarily around the door or associated directly to the door, is it? That’s talking about the full length of wall the door might be sitting in. MARK GROVE Yeah, so if somebody’s kicked a hole through the plaster board. RICHARD That’s a good point, because I think on type 3 it does talk about ‘the door’ as opposed to basically the door system.

SANDRA CLARK And I can guarantee you that one of the places I find compartmentation issues the section right above the door. So they look at the door itself, but you lift up the whole ceiling and there isn't this lovely hole only straight through, or nothing there at all, which is always like, you know. But the door is fine. It's 60 minutes, it’s fine. MARK GROVE But that’s why we’re talking about supporting construction. I mean at the end of the day, if that’s not up to specification then the door may as well not be there.

JEREMY MALET It’s probably good that it’s termed as ‘the door set’. So people realise it’s not just the door, it’s the frame it sits in and maybe associated fire rated side screens or fan lights. RICHARD What does it say in the document? Does it say in the document fire door, or does it say fire door set? JEREMY MALET Well, I'm saying doors. MARK GROVE Yeah, so it’s a fire door set management system. I mean also I didn't know whether there's anything that sort of quantifies that the door set should also include tested ironmongery. Stuff that's up to the same spec and has been tested within that door set. So you're hinges aren't gonna fail or your closers, that ironmongery is an important part of that door set, really. Are we saying we’re including the ironmongery as the door set? RICHARD Yes, if you’re talking about a door set you would, if you’re talking about a door you might not.

JEREMY MALET So again in SFG20, I think it's got those different levels of inspections and it could be the door or simple checks that can be done by that person with the relevant competence. But when it comes to the 15 minute, I think twice a year, inspections the comprehensive elements, including more aspects of the door set, could then be checked by that competent person. Including hardware, ironmongery etc. KEITH JAMES Well, you could never have a door without it being a door set, can you? It's got to be in a frame of some sort. While we’re still on 4.9, can I just say the way I’m reading that is that it’s saying there may be a need to do a remediation, in which case that doesn't become something that you do PPM on, because that presumably that PPM would fall into the normal PPM that you do for the whole door set. So a repair to an item within a door set doesn’t need ongoing PPM because obviously it gets it automatically.

MARK GROVE But that action should be logged, catalogued with what that repair was and who it was done by to the right standard, etc.  RICHARD Absolutely. But that that comes into one of the earlier ones about repairs. About logging repairs and any maintenance and replacements. I'm going to leave this there as a query anyway, just because the fact that we're having to discuss it means that it's not put possibly very clearly.

RICHARD The last one is identify and satisfy fire door training needs, the majority of which is likely to be fire door awareness training. Are they talking about for tenants? MARK GROVE I think it should be because they're the ones usually propping the doors open with the extinguisher.

SIMON KELLY  I think that I think that's likely to be for everybody, isn't it? I'll use an example that I come across very often is you’re working for a local authority, they’ve got now no end of people walking around their various portfolios. Just walking past fire doors that are damaged, popped open and stuff like that. I think it's fire door awareness training for everybody that actually has the chance to walk past the door. And have the ability to report a fault.

MARK GROVE I think that's key, and a lot of people might see something that they don't know where to go or that information will be put back to the responsible person that's gonna remediate it so. RICHARD Yeah, that's that covers a multitude of sins, that little sentence, because with we're talking about…it’s not just usage, it’s any member of the bureaucracy or the landlords need to know exactly how the things should be able…but at the end of the day, often some of the key inspections are done on the hoof by somebody who's walking through with a file who works at the housing association, who spots something. It’s often done outside of the formal inspections, so it makes sense for those people to keep an eye open for anything as critical as a fire door.

JEREMY MALET In the fire safety regulations acts, there's a requirement to provide the tenants with I think 2 copies of information about the fire doors. So that's one avenue that can tackle a little bit of that knowledge etc in terms of training. But I think the Building Safety Act also talks about resident engagement. So that's another element in terms of actually.

RICHARD Yeah, there's a lot going on in that. I've been holding one to ones with any number of housing association, local authority people on this. And one of the big things that they're all now focusing on is how to get that resident engagement. So it's not just a piece of paper that that somebody gets handed or put under their door that they're never gonna look at. We got people looking at scanning something on a mobile phone if you tell them exactly what to do because there's a fire in their kitchen, you name it. Various versions to the video screens up in all the main corridors. It’s certainly being taken very seriously, but I don't think it's …as with everything people are doing different things. But it certainly needs to happen. But I think the point about it is it's not just the residents, it's everybody. I mean, who gets into every nook and cranny of everything more than the cleaners.

SANDRA CLARK But I do kind of agree with that comment that we should be putting it for everybody because if we're doing these door inspections, it’s only gonna be done once every quarter, once every month, once every year. It’s like having our MOT, we don't just only look at that point, it’s ongoing. And we need to move away from thinking it's somebody else's problem to report it or somebody else would do it. People need to take ownership. RICHARD That’s a culture change, isn’t it? SANDRA CLARK Absolutely, massively.

RICHARD So I'm going to put here in this one, yes, we agree, but it needs to stress that it's everyone. It's not just tenants. MARK GROVE And you could probably put in some sub-points regarding user groups. Residents are a user group and they should be notified in one way of the training and what they’re meant to look out for. As you say security guys, cleaners, anyone that’s within that environment. RICHARD The sort of thing they might come across and not recognise, they need to be able to recognise it. Encouraging staff reporting, which that again is that they should report it, please do, they’re not going to get in trouble that the report the fact that the doors not working. PAUL COLECLOUGH In our organisation we have don’t walk by promoting, a don’t walk by culture.

SANDRA CLARK And also on the other side of things, it should be easy for people to report it. if you make it that you’ve got hang on the phone for 45 minutes until somebody answers the phone, then actually people won’t bother. I think that's just as important at the other end of that, that’s how you report.

MARK GROVE Something I've been working on where residents get a free app, they can scan a tag on it and they can report damage that goes straight up to the responsible person. So that makes it easy for everyone. They don’t actually have to pay anything, it’s just scan the tag and report. RICHARD Yeah, because at the end of the day, to be honest, people are also lazy, so you’ve got to make it as easy as you possibly can.