MANUFACTURING WORKING GROUP MEETING RECORDING-20221108
WILL PERKINS Picking typical products and asking ourselves specific questions what is the critical bits of information that need to be captured in terms of the golden Thread and hopefully we can pull together lots of good examples of fire safety products and feed that into the wider BIM for housing initiative.
The subject of this meeting is Electric strikes and security entrance systems.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes, electric locking as a component, obviously of a door set, which can be a fire door or an escape door so we will cover this: what are the essential requirements for those?
Roy shares his screen
For the purposes of the application we will use this floor plan that we have used previously. I found the colour version rather than the plain line drawing one. To start off we have to get a bit of background. Access control is something applied to doors in a building. Too often it is applied later on in the project which means that some of the requirements are not thought early enough which can lead to difficulties in achieving what is required under the current regulatory requirements. We need to identify what is the information that is needed to ensure that we have a compliant and correct solution on these doors. So we have to start thinking about what is applicable. So we have the fire integrity of the doors and we need to make sure we don’t compromise that in any way for e.g. with any addition of the electric hardware. We also have the need of the occupants to escape from the building and the ability to easily overcome any locked door on an escape route in a timely fashion. So there are mandatory requirements that apply and these requirements stay the same in either case: whether it is a mechanically or electronically locked door. Under the construction product regulation and the current framework we have for the CE certification or the UK conformity assessment certification, there are mandatory requirements that the hardware must comply in order to be deemed suitable for the use in that application and above all we have to not interfere with the integrity of the fire door. Access control can take many forms: it can be an electric lock which is hardwired to an access control reader and an access control system. Or it could be a battery powered locking device with a built-in sort of RFID reader or PIN pad on the actual unit itself. It does not matter what it is but the requirements don’t change. So if the doors are escape doors they need to comply with the escape legislation, if it is fire rated doors we still must not affect the integrity of the door and what we fit to the door. The type of solution we are thinking about today is an electric lock and I have picked the one to show you that most mandatory certifications apply to, but it could also be a magnetic or a mechanical lock – the requirements are the same.
Any hardware which is deemed to be essential to maintain the compartmentation and provide the fire integrity is the door closer, the hinges, any mechanical or electromechanical lock or electric strike and then from an escape door perspective the essential hardware would be any locking device which is deemed to be an emergency escape lock or a panic escape lock, or an electrically controlled lock as part of any M13637 solution, would fall into that category, all those C certification or UK CE certification is not a requirement at the moment. I will come back to that. So if we think about the electric lock solution, so the lock, the handle set and the striking plate that sits adjacent to the lock that interacts with, are what is covered by the construction product regulation and the mandatory requirement for C certification. So in order to comply with the building regs, we have to comply with construction product regulation, which means that the hardware, if we were to fit these to an escape door, need to be C certificated and we were to fit it to a fire door, it needs to have adequate fire test evidence and also have the correct classification in Box 4 of the classification code under the C certification, so that would indicate that the product is suitable for a fire door.
So this is the door and that lock there, it is a hard wired solution. It could be battery powered but in this case we are going to think about a hard wired one. So you would have a cable way in the actual door and you would have a cable transfer device to transfer the power and the cable onto the door leaf as well as some stuff around the environment of the door. Any cable way and the actual lock being fitted into a fire door can have a detrimental effect on the actual fire door integrity itself. As a minimum it needs to have the correct C classification in Box 4 of the classification code to prove that the product is designed for use on a fire door and has been subjected to a fire test to prove its suitability.
WILL PERKINS You were talking about C certification now, what specifically need to be C marked there?
ROY BUCKINGHAM From a fire door perspective, it will be the door closer, the hinges, the lock case, these would be the essential items so they would require the correct classification in the Box 4 of the classification code and would have a Zianex 7:23 to allow the CE marking of the product for use on a fire door.
WILL PERKINS and where is the control of the quality of the installation on the fire door itself which is the primary product for defending against smoke transfer?
ROY BUCKINGHAM So the control of installation is a difficult one because there is no mandatory requirement for installation of a fire door by a third party accredited installer. So it comes down to obviously the contractor manager perhaps the quality auditing the installations that his team are providing on site, or if the door supply is part of a third party accreditation scheme, then obviously they are compliant with that third party accreditation.
WILL PERKINS I am assuming that the components you are talking about on the screen are factory-fitted.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Not necessarily, because in the UK we have two types of doors that can be provided into a building. We have door sets and door assemblies. A door set is where everything comes from a single source, so there is one invoice for everything. So that is hardware, door, leaf, door frame. All supplied from that one source and in most cases that would be factory prepared.
WILL PERKINS So what is in that instance? What is the standard mark that covers the door and all the components as one product?
ROY BUCKINGHAM So again, it is complicated because there is no CE mark that applies so the best thing we have got is the BS8214 which is the standard for door sets or door assemblies and that will define the hardware that is deemed to be essential components has to meet those certification so that standard will refer to it but there is no requirement for C certification of that internal door set.
WILL PERKINS If it was an external door set, would that include a declaration of performance? Would the components of that be interchangeable?
ROY BUCKINGHAM To a limited degree.
WILL PERKINS So all the components have to have already been seen, marked and installed and that would be covered under a new declaration. Effectively the whole lot together is a new product and there will be a declaration performance for that product.
ROY BUCKINGHAM And that is where the difficulty comes in with these internal door sets because there is not that. You have got to look in a more granular aspect to make sure that the hardware that is being fitted to the doors meets the requirements as well as the door as a whole, maintaining the fire integrity etc. under the fire test evidence that has been obtained.
That is only one type of door set, we also have what we call door assemblies. So door assemblies is the frame that would come from one supplier and then the door leaf from another supplier and the hardware from someone completely different. That probably accounts for the majority of the door sets sold in the UK market. So then you refer back to BS8214 which will define how that door simply should go together. It will define what the performance criteria of the components should be, where they are covered by the harmonized European standards or after 2023, the designated UK standards. But ultimately it is up to the person who assembles it on site to make sure it is within the manufacturers’ instructions and that the hardware fitted is suitable and designed for that application. This is where the difficulty comes in because when you come to the components, there should be declarations of performance for those essential hardware, like hinges, door closer, mechanical or electromechanical strike, emergency escape hardware and panic escape hardware, so all of those are covered by the certification and therefore need a DOP. In my opinion the components that make up that complete door set should also have their DOPs included with the fire safety information that is handed across to the responsible person because otherwise in their normal course of maintaining that door, how will they know that the parameters are of that hardware that they can change on that door?
WILL PERKINS and yes there is a glaring gaping hole in terms of the quality of installation even if you are using C marked products. If you do not know what you are doing there is no safety net there.
ROY BUCKINGHAM and the installation of that hardware is fundamental to the performance of that door from a fire and operational perspective.
WILL PERKINS There is no factory control, there is no quality control, there is no oversight.
ROY BUCKINGHAM There is a change in the market place happening. Single-source door sets are becoming more popular and the manufacturers selling door sets are promoting the need to have a QR code or barcode or something similar which actually gives all the info related to the hardware that is being fitted to that door and that door’s information. So what we are doing here potentially will help the market to bring quality solutions into the market place. But still something like 80% of doors sold in the UK market are still door assemblies (not single-source door sets).
Depending on the type of door, you get different requirements for the way that the cable might be rooted around the door, but that all should be if it's a fire rated door. Obviously that has an impact on the fire integrity in the door. The other thing we need to consider is not just about whether a product has a correct classification in digit for its performance standard, which identifies its suitable for provider. But there also needs to be adequate fire test evidence for the combined solution. So if we just to set the scene, if we went back 10-15 years, a hardware manufacturer would do a fire test with their product in a typical example door, a door manufacturer would do fire testing of their doors, not necessarily without hardware installed, but it was acceptable to put the two together as a combined solution in a fire door application. Following Grenfell building control have substantially changed that. The reality was that we weren't doing things the correct way in the past because approved document B is always said that the fitting of hardware to a fire rated door can substantially affect the performance of that door and the integrity of that door. Because if you fit a lock which is oversized compared to what the fire test was done, then of course potentially that may lead to an early failure of the door. But people they ignored that. But since Grenfell building controller tightened up and now what they're actually looking for is that combined test evidence. So under BS476 part 22 or EN 1634 part one and the two fire tests that are applicable to fire doors, and under that what building control are now looking for is that combined test evidence that proves that door leaf and door frame have been tested with that particular hardware fitted to that door. So the evidence is combined. That's been backed up a little bit by the fact if we remember from Grenfell the following that tragedy, there was a mass fire testing of flat entrance doors that were carried out from major manufacturers. And the majority of them failed. And that's because they weren't necessarily tested from both sides of the door opening in - opening out, and they weren't tested with the hardware necessarily that they had been fitted with. So that has sort of prompted that distinct change in in in the regulations.
So it's even more critical now that not only do we have the DOPs for the essential hardware, but they're also is adequate fire test evidence to prove the combined solution as has achieved FT30 FT60 etc.
So if we come back to this drawing, in a typical sort of building, where would we find access control? What it's gonna be on the circulation route within building. So, you might have access control, which is managing access to the stair core because you don't want somebody who's authorized to be on one level going up to a different floor, because you you're trying to minimize crime, you minimize people to only go to the areas where they are authorized to go to, and somebody who lives on the 10th or doesn't necessarily need to go to the fifth floor unless they visiting somebody they know, who would let them in. So you might find access control on the circulation doors. Predominantly this would be controlling access onto the stairwell, or it could be controlling access off of the stairwell, but either way, it's still an electric lock which is actually fitting to the fire rated door, which is also on an escape route so has to be easily overcome.
So if we were controlling access onto the floor plate in this scenario, we've got two possible doors where we could actually install the access control hardware. Now one is an FT60 rated door, one is an FT-30 door. Now, if I was talking to an architect, the first thing I would say is the easier place to install is gonna be on the FFT 30 door because you've potentially got an easier way of achieving an electric lock solution on that door, whilst maintaining that fire certification because obviously an FT 60 is a more onerous fire test and it can be more difficult to get an electric locking hardware through an FT60 fire test and it can be for an FT30 fire test. So we might be fitting that. But if we're gonna fit that electric lock to these doors, what do we actually need from a compliance perspective?
So firstly it's an escape route, so we need compliance with one of the escape standards: E179 E 1125 or E 13637.
It's a fire rated door, so we then need the compliance with the fire door requirements. So instantly we need C certification for the escape compliance. We then need C certification for the hardware in respect to the fire door and so EN 14846 for the lock. Obviously EN 179 or EN 1125 for the escape function, and so there's instantly some DOPs that we need to have for the hardware there to comply with. In addition to that, we then need that dual certification or sorry, that the fire test evidence that proves the combined solution working together is suitable and acceptable. Now that's a bit difficult to quantify because that relies upon the door supplier to actually provide that information and confirm that the hardware proposed that the door is adequate for that application and covered within the scope of testing. So that's kind of where we are with regards to what is required.
A locked door and escape route has to be easily operated without any prior knowledge and without the need to use a key token or a ping code in order to unlock that door and if you if you take approved document be literally what it actually is referring to is a single operation to unlock and open the door. Now that's ultimately what it describes.
JIM CREAK (Guest) Obviously, the escape route is primarily one way to the stairs, so does that does the any of the requirements mean that the lock has to be overridden on both sides?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Not necessarily. It's a good question. But if that was a fire fighter stairs, so the emergency services will use that to access the floors in order to fight the fire within, then there may be a requirement for easy access onto the floor. So that would be covered under approved document B.
JIM CREAK (Guest): OK. And that and that would be decided by the architect?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, it would be the design and the fire strategy for the building, which defines what is required for these doors. So that's a key element of the design is the fire strategy and this is something I always point out to architects is that they need to be thinking about the fire strategy and the requirements for security at the early stages in conjunction with one another, because anything you fit to a door to provide that level of an additional security element can have a detrimental impact on that fire strategy for the building.
So, it could need to have access in and there are different requirements as to what this door needs to do so, do we need that door to fail, locked or fail unlocked? So there's a misconception that you need an escape door to fail unlocked because an escape door can fail locked providing it still always provides that single operation to escape through the door from the inside. From the secure side. So if you've got an EL179 or an EM1125 locking solution on the door then that will have a mechanical function to unlock the door in the direction of escape. But the door can fail locked for entry, so then preventing people coming into the secure area.
Obviously, we also have fair unlocked requirements, so approved document B describes green break glasses and the need to have an electrical lock failing unlocked. And that's because you know they want this door to become insecure in the event of a fire alarm activation. Or operation of the green break glass. But again, the one thing that's often overlooked in that scenario is the need to escape from a building is not just because of fire. That's just one reason we may need to escape a building. If there was a gas leak or a terror incident or something like that, then you may need to escape a building without the firearm having activated. So therefore you always need to have that manual means of unlocking the door. If the door is electrically controlled and has to be electrically unlocked, then that falls into the scope of the M 13637. And BSL 214, which is the door standard, will actually refer you to the M 13637 for that application. And that wouldn't be a green break glass necessarily. It is a slightly different solution.
So there's a number of things to sort of think about because often access control is added in at a later stage. So it may be even after the doors have been ordered, you know somebody suddenly decides they need to electrically lock that door. Well, you can't just change the mechanical hardware on the door and fit electric locking, because that could compromise the doors integrity from a fire perspective and it may compromise the escape strategy for the building. So there's a number of things that need to be thought of earlier on.
JIM CREAK (Guest) There are fire fighters that do come up against locked doors - not all of them have got override for fire fighting, so I you know, either we won't sell any. Some of the manual pin lock devices that obviously have got no override from one side, or there's gonna be a whole bunch of things if the fire fighters have got access through every locked door.
ROY BUCKINGHAM, You can't make every door fight unlocked to allow the fire fighters access because you know, you have got couple the fire safety requirements with the security needs of the building as well. So there's always gonna be that that clash to some degree. If you have a building that there might be multi occupancy, so it might be residential in one part of the building, but perhaps on a lower part of the building it's more commercial, you know and you might want to manage people going from the different areas. So there's gonna be different needs in the commercial area you're not gonna want doors to fail on knots because it becomes insecure. So what I try to get people to think about is the design functions function of the door.
So, one of the things that we we've done is to try and simplify things. If we think about what the regulatory requirements are and then the design function of the door, then we identified there are only 6 door types in the building. So you've got a door type A, it's not fire rated, it's not escape, it's a convenience store privacy door. But there's no there's no mandatory requirements that apply to that door for the hardware that you fit to it. So you haven't got to worry about compliance in any particular level on that. It might be good practice to fit hardware that meter performance standard, but there's no mandatory requirement to do so. But you've got a door type B, it's a non-fire rated door, but it's an emergency escape, so all of a sudden we have mandatory requirements so the locking hardware must conform to the emergency escape standard EM179 or if it's electrically locked and has to be electrically unlocked then you would comply with the M 13637. Same with a door type C which is non fire rated but panic escape so again mandatory requirements but instead the standard is here and 1125 and 13637.
Door Type D might be riser cupboard, it's fire rated, but it's not an escape door, so there's mandatory requirements that apply for the hardware under the requirements for a fire door. Door type E is both fire door and emergency escaped door so that actually would be that door that we were looking at on that stairwell. It's a circulation door, it's fire rated and it's on an escape route. That's probably the most common door, where access control is fitted in a building. And then we got a door type F which is slightly different risk from an escape perspective. It's a panic risk rather than an emergency risk. And it's also a fire-rated door. So again mandatory requirements. So five of those six door types have mandatory requirements that have to be complied with for the hardware that you're fit into those doors. And so that's where I try to get people to start from, because that tells them, you know, you know what, what is required? What do we have to meet in order to achieve the functionality on the door? What hardware requirements are there?
I bring up the question the question. So if we have to think about the questions that we might need to ask to arrive at that information that we need to prove that the products that have been used, the hardware products that have been used on the door, are designed for the purpose, and have the right certifications to provide the authority that they got the right products to meet the requirements. So the overriding thing here is the designer should ensure that the doors incorporating electric locking devices are up to date and relevant test evidence and 3rd party certification importance with the requirements of the UK Construction Products Regulation and are provided with detailed installation details relevant to that installation. So the parameters in which the hardware can be fitted.
So if we think of the majority of suppliers into the marketplace, they will buy a core aka a slab of timber which they then convert into a door set. So they might then manufacture a frame, they'll cut the door to the size that they need for that particular opening and that will become the fire door that they're selling into the project.
So, as I say, that can be supplied in two ways. It can be supplied as a door set, which is everything from a single source or a door assembly where they might only be supplying the door leaf and the frame and then somebody else is providing the hardware. But ultimately the door supplier will either have their own fire test evidence to prove the fire certification of the door, and within that certification, they will set the parameters of what hardware can be used on that door. Alternatively, they may rely upon the door core manufacturers, global evidence and field of application documents which define what the parameters are, the sizes are, and what the tested hardware is based on multiple fire tests that have been committed over a period of time and all assimilated into that single document. So sometimes the door supplier owns the evidence, sometimes it's the core manufacturer that owns the evidence, but ultimately there will be an overriding set of test data which defines the parameters, sizing configurations of those doors that can be installed. And that hardware that's gonna be installed on that door needs to fall within those tested parameters to be deemed suitable. And that caused us a big problem after Grenfell because when building control suddenly changed their requirements to have combined test evidence, the reality was the door industry have lots of test evidence from mechanical locks - they had very little for electronic, electromechanical or electronic locks, and all of a sudden, you know, the solutions that are used for access control couldn't be fitted to the finals. So it's taken a long while to address that. So this is the product specification question set for fire rated doors and so the first question we've got there is what is the required fire rating for the door? The lock is to be installed into. So we need to understand if it's an empty 30 or 4060 because we then got to make sure that the hardware we fit to it matches that rating and is suitable for a similar rated door.
WILL PERKINS: So in column J or K is it worth us putting it all in column J effectively EG 30,60 and the units would be minutes, isn't it? And I mean the 3030 and 60 relates to time, doesn't it? Minutes?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes. So that's the time period. So it could be 30, 60 ninety 120 or even 240 for an application. And interestingly, you know, we we're starting to see more higher rated doors being specified, which seems to be gaining ground.
So it's understanding what that rating is and who is responsible for ensuring that compliance. So obviously the client developers, the people who are gonna operate the building are going to be accountable because once the building's been built and handed over to them under the RO, they're gonna be accountable.
The designer is responsible to some degree because they got to define what the requirements are. The main contractor is delivering the solution, so I would think that they are responsible, particularly in a design and build application. The trade contractor is supplying the product into the built environment, so they're responsible as well.
The manufacturer would be consulted because somebody's buying their product to put it into an application, so they might need to be consulted about the fire test evidence to ensure the hardware and the door are compatible. And of course, the supplier may not be the actual manufacturer. It may be being supplied through a third party, so the supplier would also need to consult to ensure they're supplying the right product. And then the building operator might be responsible rather than just informed.
JIM CREAK (Guest) I think they are responsible. They must seek assurance from others, so I put those back with the client and developer.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes, the Commissioner just needs to be informed. And if we sort of go through these doors, so if we know that the door is a fire door, then we need to know which standard it's tested to as well.
JIM CREAK (Guest) And for a retrofit then the tenant could be responsible too, or the property manager.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, definitely. Because if you think about Grenfell, one of the issues was that that there were flat doors that have had had been modified. They might have even changed them to a U PVC door, which it's clearly not fire rated. So there is an element now I don't know quite where we fit them. Do we need to put that in as another column?
WILL PERKINS Let's try and keep to those columns in that instance and it's fairly safe to assume that a tenant comes under the operator.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, I agree. So we need to know if you're verifying that the hardware is fire tested, you need to know to which standard the door is fire tested. It doesn't matter which of those standards, it is the same requirements still apply to the hardware.
WILL PERKINS With what evidence?
ROY BUCKINGHAM That's a good question. Really. I was hoping we'd have one of the door people that have been part of these working groups on this one as well, which would have enlightened me because my forte is in the components and not necessarily in the doors themselves.
JIM CREAK (Guest)
They're all arguing between themselves about their custodian of testing. Who is going actually say what they actually use?
ROY BUCKINGHAM So ultimately there will be that global evidence document field of application document which defines what the fire test evidence is applicable to, that door set, whether it's a door assembly or whether it's a door set. So ultimately the supplier of that door would be the one that will certificate and say that yes, it's within the scope of that testing.
OK, let’s put in in column J: evidence required.
JIM CREAK (Guest)
Well, it's definitely required as a function of regulation 38 under building regs and, in my experience, at the moment there are some very sophisticated registers appearing as dummy documents for the Firedoors Now registers for the whole process.
ROY BUCKINGHAM but it’s the door supplier because ultimately it's going to be the person who's supplying the main contractor that's gonna need to satisfy the main contractor.
JIM CREAK (Guest)
But the main contractor will be responsible for handing over the Regulation 38 paperwork.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah. So again, I've got the client developer as being accountable Designer responsible main contractor responsible, the trade contractor responsible. Manufacturer consulted, supplier consulted. But I would say the door supplier actually is responsible for that evidence. And the operator and Commissioner informed. So that then obviously was the other question is: is it a door assembly or is it a door set, because that might define whether there's E marking applicable to the Dorset, if it's an external door, it may be it will have. If it's an internal door not necessarily.
WILL PERKINS It's OK from a golden thread point of view: Why does the building operator need to know if it's a door set or an assembly decides assembly?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Because of the limitations on what they can change within that, as an operational ongoing maintenance requirement. So with a door set you have to stick within what was fitted on the door. So if for instance if the door set had a certificate with a particular door closer fitted in a particular way, you may not be able to change that door closer to an alternative solution if it's not covered within that scope. Same with the locking element.
WILL PERKINS Why commercially, would anybody ever go down a door set route, apart from the fact that it's safer, it's got full traceability, it's got full test history apart from those really good reasons commercially, why would you go down that route?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Less risk. So from a main contractor's perspective, if you're building a big, big hospital or a big tower block, if you're buying a C marked door set, then you know that there's only one person that's responsible for ensuring the full compliance at that door set. If you're buying a door assembly. And of course also because the door set tends to be factory prepared as a door set, so you've got less risk from the way that the door is gonna operate once it's been installed on site, because it theoretically should all be within tolerance. When it's installed, because it's been designed, the framers been designed to work with the door set. The hardware has been designed to work on the door set.
WILL PERKINS So is it reasonable to put there as it just as a narrative, a door set is more robustly tested. Preferable safer.
JIM CREAK (Guest) I don't know very because door sets don't necessarily come with them - all the electronics necessary for relay operation and security. So you're gonna change a door set anyway, so there's some vagaries about, but having said that, fit it as fitted. It'll probably be easier for the tier one contractor to fit a door set and leave the security to somebody else.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So that's the key. A good point you raised there. So effectively, if you have a door set say it's a mechanically operated door set and you wanted to add access control to it, you're gonna negate that certification. The other thing we need to remember is a Dorset fitted as an internal door set in a building doesn't have C marking requirements at this moment in time. It may do in the future, but at the moment there isn't C marking requirements for the door set as a whole, only for the hardware that goes on to the Dorset.
WILL PERKINS So question why do we need to know the difference between a door assembly and a door set and whether it's a door assembly or a door set?
JIM CREAK (Guest) From my perspective it would be a lot easier if there was no access requirements on an as design project to fit door sets, because then I would be assured from the manufacturing point of view that it meets the requirements. But I wouldn't have that assurance as a procurer for door assemblies. I'd be reliant on the contractor a lot more.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So, it comes down to understanding the parameters for what the test evidence might be from a fire certification, but also the parameters of what hardware can be interchanged on that door set on an ongoing basis for maintenance. So knowing whether the door is a door set or a door assembly would allow the building operator to know that there may be limitations on the parameters of what products they can change within.
WILL PERKINS So actually isn't the question: What's the harmonised standard for a door set?
ROY BUCKINGHAM So there isn't a harmonized standard for an internal door set, only an external.
WILL PERKINS So ultimately what we're saying there is: Does it fall within scope of 14351? The evidence is created, look for a declaration of performance outside of that, it's actually less structured, isn't it? It's a lot more flexible.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So you could actually take this question out because we got this question here, which is: Is the door set you see UKCA? So if I strike through that we could say we don't need. So if I add in that. So we could say that's covered by question 8.
JIM CREAK (Guest) But you're gonna get a no for a door assembly, aren't you?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes.
JIM CREAK (Guest) So what do you do then?
ROY BUCKINGHAM So you still you still gonna need to have the DOPs for the hardware. But there is no C certification for the door, so you don't need a DOP for it.
JIM CREAK (Guest) It's not gonna make any difference at all if that is certificated and you're gonna be retrofitting security, are you? So I mean if it is certified, that obviously it would suggest that it's a door set fitted with a device that you want.
ROY BUCKINGHAM You know that the whole reason as to why we need to understand what the hardware is certificated to, because if it's a door assembly, that's the only way of knowing whether it's the correct hardware or not on the door. Does that make sense?
JIM CREAK (Guest) Well, I'm looking at the questionnaire as it would be helpful to a designer. Or an architect because if it's a door set about the whole lot, I'm not assured if it's a door assembly. I'm only assured by the contractor. But, I can't answer the question, because the question #8 it's assuming that everything is a door set, not a door assembly.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes, I see where you're coming from, because we, we can't say that the door assembly is EUCE because it doesn't apply, so it's a tricky one. The reason for asking the question if somebody wanted to verify whether the door met their requirements. Then, if it was if it was an external doorset, then CE marking would be a mandatory requirement under the construction product regulation. But if it's an internal one, it's not.
JIM CREAK (Guest) I think if you put eight and nine together, if you write it like this: does the doors fire, test evidence, cover the applied hardware? So you have one or the other. Because that makes better sense to me. ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes, see part of the reason why that question is there is because a door could be a non fire rated escape door on the perimeter of the building, in which case you may need to know whether that is a C marked door set because you need a DOP for the actual door itself for the door set. If it's an internal fire door, there is no requirement for that. Either of them could be door sets or could be door assemblies and you know because you don't have to use a door set. It's complicated, isn't it?
JIM CREAK (Guest) But I think what we should do is to just confine ourselves to fire doors with the 3060 or 90 minute radio rating, because the others are effectively not within the scope of. I suppose it's in the scope of BIM, but they have to be dealt with completely separately, don't they?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, but don't forget there's two reasons why a door needs to have mandatory requirements. One is the fire integrity and one is escape, so it's the doors and escape door. It still needs to have the DOPs for the hardware being fitted to the door. So that's why the questionnaire is for a door – internal and external because if it's internal then this doesn't apply. If it's external then that does apply.
JIM CREAK (Guest) Yeah. That a bit misleading as well, because you could say that in some blocks of flats the front door is internal. But it's not. It's being treated as an external door, isn't it? But I like the suggestion of the fact that if it's for escape, it's included. Do you know what I mean for the operator? If he considers that door is required for escape, then these things need to be assured. And specifically, if they've got any security device on it.
ROY BUCKINGHAM I guess internal or external wouldn't normally be the flat entrance unless it is open to the elements. And because it's a flat entrance that wouldn't be covered by the C certification. It's gonna be the communal entrance or the panic escape doors at the bottom of the escape stairs, which are gonna be the ones that require that C certification.
WILL PERKINS Is it worth actually turning this around and go at it from the hardware point of view first? and I think the difficulty we coming at is there are so many variations here.
ROY BUCKINGHAM It could be, but I'm sure a door supplier would suggest otherwise, but. So this is a general questionnaire for the fire rated doors and the C certification of the door set. I've then got a set of questions that actually relate to the hardware.
JIM CREAK (Guest) I like this because it actually does provoke some communication between stakeholders and other parties.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, and of course we got there. Does the door fire test evidence cover the applied hardware because the doors evidence needs to also cover the hardware and the hardware needs to be fire tested independently on its own right as well.
WILL PERKINS I'm pleased to see Elliott (Dawson) has joined us, he is a door manufacturer. So he might be able to do the next session talking about fire doors.
ELLIOT DAWSON One point I would like to make is that we would supply as a door manufacturer exactly the same door set that would be used for what would be classed as an internal flat door. So one that probably sits off a communal area. But in those internal flat doors there will be an identical door probably on the back to a landing at little veranda type in these maisonettes which we're seeing 10s of thousands of which will be classed as an external door and will have exactly the same hardware or be exactly the same door, but we have to test that to UK CA levels because the one that is open to the elements even though it isn't, requires a CA marking the one that is internal doesn't require anything. But it's the same door. So what we are looking to do now is we test everything so the full door set to UK CA marking and then it complies with everything you can imagine so that is 14351. And that is where we are moving to. We are not there yet on all our door designs, but we will be by February, March of next year, it's an absolute nightmare. It is because the apps etc for CA, marking a ludicrous. So you can't take a min and a max. You have to do it in ever decreasing circles, which as you're aware ever decreasing circles never meet the middle and never meet the requirements because you could only reduce and I'm not technical to the enth degree, but I believe you can only reduce and increments of 25%. So it's an expensive process, let's put it that way.
WILL PERKINS And from a hardware point of view your testing with a suite of hardware that is limited in your ability to substitute maintain your certification I'm guessing.
ELLIOT DAWSON Yes. So we have a list or four closers that we could that can be used that we've used in a succession of testing. Same with handles are pre-supplied, but primarily it is the closer that we substitute in and out. But we do make sure obviously on our testing we'd have to use two or three different, but that would only apply to that one test, and this is the ridiculous part of it. So if we did one test with an ASSA Abloy or one test with a Rutland, and then we decreased down 25% and used a different closer, we wouldn't have CA marking for that door set on the smaller dimension with the other product, it wouldn't cascade down.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So that kind of explains why the operator of the building needs to understand whether the doors see marked or not because you know if it see marked, then they'll know that there's limitations on what they can change.
ELLIOT DAWSON That should that should be within the field of application or the scope.
So on a data tag that's in our door that that building operator will have, it will have those parameters at the click of a button for them.
WILL PERKINS So the question is though, what does the designer put into the specification to make sure? ELLIOT DAWSON That the designer can't. The designer can only specify a fire door that is CA marked for fire and smoke. They couldn't specify a particular door with a particular closer because it would have to be already within that field of application by that door manufacturer.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, it starts to get prescriptive, and of course, if they went to a different manufacturer then there the solution will be different. Yeah, it might be different hardware, different door configuration, different test evidence.
WILL PERKINS So is the question actually from a designer point of view, the designer needs to state it's whether it's a 30 minute or 60 minute.
ELLIOT DAWSON Yeah, but CA marked. So, rather than getting into the intricacies of whether it's an internal composite door or an external, if I was trying to push the designer, I wouldn't push them to a particular product. I would just say it whether it's internal, external for future compliance, all those sets must be CA marked and be 3060 or 90 minutes depending on what they stipulate. And then it's down to the manufacturer to provide that field of application to the person who's owning the building or looking after the building as to how they maintain that product moving forward.
JIM CREAK (Guest) What happens then if the designer wants to fit security devices to the door set? Like an electronic security on the lock.
WILL PERKINS Security access, which is the actually the subject of the discussion today.
ELLIOT DAWSON Forget it , unless it's being unless it's being tested. You can't because you it won't be in the field of application. We can test with the Wink House or we can use the Wink House AV2E electronic lock. But apart from that, there's no other lock that we've tested. So without going down a route you could you could speak to a manufacturer and say pre installation what locking mechanisms have you got within your field of application. That would be one way round it, but retrospectively I think you would struggle to fit anything. I know you can fit certain things to the face of our door as long as the skin isn't penetrated because it's a phenolic foam, so it will just close the gaps anyway. But you can't actually chase out any of the any of the hardwood or the foam. So in in one sense she can retrospectively fit certain things, but nothing that would be seen to accelerate the fire, which again, without testing, they all could. So we're back to square one.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes, so what I would say is obviously you do more than what is required because you're supplying see sort of UK CA assessed door sets, which for applications you don't need to provide that certain level of certification portal. But if we are, just as an idea, looking at the image on the screen there, one of the areas we were thinking of is the circulation route, doors, you apply access control to that. Of course there's no CE certification required for these doors. It is not a mandatory requirement. But there is a mandatory requirement for the hardware to meet certain UK CA certifications but also for the hardware to meet certain certifications from a fire perspective as well. And you tell us you would need combined fire test evidence to cover the door and cover the hardware fitted to that door. So that is what my question whether it's internal or external came from. It is because trying to identify whether the door needs to be UK, CA certificated or not.
ELLIOT DAWSON And I I agree with everything that you said, but I think what you'll find is a door manufacturer will go down one route or the other. They will either be purely internal doors, at which point they don't need to CA marking and they can just operate. But that limits the the application of that door because in essence it's an external door anyway, but they're just not. They're not getting the harder / more costly accreditation. The other one is you'll get people like us who are going down the route that if we get the highest level then the whole market is open to us and therefore we can put that door, it costs us not a penny more once we've been through the testing. But to your point of that I think you'd have to still get as daft as it sounds you would whilst ever the door might not need to be CA marked that all the component parts on it from a hardware perspective will. So therefore therefore they will need to be tested, which will by default make that door set CA mark because you will have to go through a test or the relevant testing to achieve that accreditation.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Not necessarily because obviously if the hardware meets the the UK CA, the door set is being fitted to, doesn't have to, if it's an internal Dorset.
ELLIOT DAWSON So is that not a desktop study?
ROY BUCKINGHAM No, it's life safety critical applications. So the essential hardware is at a station level, one third party certification, and that would apply to anything which is deemed essential to the performance of the door. So your door closer, or your hinges, any mechanical or electromechanical lock or electric strike, the emergency escape hardware and the panic escape hardware. They all fall under the scope.
WILL PERKINS It comes all the way back to the discussion we have before you joined Elliott. However, the way that is installed onto a door which could be on site has got no quality control, no certification, no factory production control, nothing. You could just drill great big holes through it.
ELLIOT DAWSON Well, that's what I'm think I'm playing devil's advocate here and saying if I fit all your beautiful hardware to a chocolate door.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, and that's where obviously the fire test evidence comes into it. So from a door surprise perspective, they would have to be combined test evidence to show that hardware and that door compatible and have been tested together. But how do we how do we define that from a regulatory perspective and ensure they understand what they need to be asking.
WILL PERKINS I mean it is the direct parallel appreciate volumes are much smaller, but our area is natural smoke ventilation which for all intents and purposes is a window and an actuator. There you are a door and a piece of hardware. The same thing. What did we do as an industry? we said together that is 1 product. You can't substitute, you test it together. You issue a declaration performance for the product. It's so much easier now. I appreciate you doing the variations indoors and volumes are totally, totally different, but if you've got something they're porting 351, surely we should just be pushing that.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, Europe is very much a door set market. They've already gone down that route, but the UK is still held onto this door assembly requirement and it's because of the number of doors that are sold through the Travis Perkins and people like that, that account for the vast majority of fire doors sold in the UK.
ELLIOT DAWSON I agreed, I think you'll find 99% of all fire door. Manufacturers now will provide a complete door set. We won't even sell a blade to anybody that has an intention of just retrofitting it into an aperture.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So of course, the other thing that's a consideration on a fire door is whether the hardware is actually installed in accordance with the defined parameters that it's been tested within. So if you think about that door closer scenario, if we went back sort of 10 or 15 years, possibly even longer, the popular door closer was a Britain 2003 fixed power size 3 door closer, perfectly adequate for a for a door when it's on the pool side with the bracket, the arms coming out at 90 degrees from the door, because it's a fixed power size 3. But if you fitted it on the opposite side of the door so that your arm was parallel with the door, it actually lost a power size and became a power size 2 door closer and wasn't added suitable for that application on the fire door. So of course the C certification for the door closer or the UK CA certification will define the parameters in which that door closer can be used on a fire door. So if it's application one, DOP is there. If it's application 66 on the opposite side of the door, it's not covered by the DOP. So it's not just about understanding, it hasn't DOP, but also understanding that the products been fitted in accordance with the DOP as well.
WILL PERKINS Going back to our scenario of our building our plan- a student accommodation- would the design team be expected to specify the hardware?
ROY BUCKINGHAM With access control quite often, yes, because there will be a security consultant involved. There may be a designing the access control system that's going to be used in the building and they're in the MEP package, which is completely separate to the door package, which is perhaps in a different package so.
WILL PERKINS For sure. But that's comes down to the fire strategy within smoke ventilation is the same thing, have split packages, doors, facade, windows, electrics, the whole lot is it very, very similar. What is it that the fire strategy team have got to define in there? Because actually flipping it round, if they're specifying the security access control, then part f that is that they need to specify a fire door which is UK CA approved with that specific hardware surely.
ROY BUCKINGHAM You've hit one of the key problems in the industry is it is at the moment because, the doors have got specified as FD30 FT60 etcetera. That will define what those fire requirements are. But you'll go all the way through to about stage three before somebody thinks about the access control because up until that point they've been specified in silos separately. Nobody's been thinking about them as a joined up solution.
WILL PERKINS Yes, 100%. But this is it, we're in a perfect world now in this, in this example. It's wonderful because we can get everything right and what we're trying to do is specify the questions to the designers. What seems to me the discussion here is actually the fire strategy design team, one of their first questions before they choose on the fire rating of the door is the access control. Because that will determine what products they can install when it comes to finals.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes and what the door set needs to be capable of doing, with the hardware fitted.
WILL PERKINS OK, cool. So it's driven. So the security access actually, in the hierarchy, is higher than the door set.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, I would agree.
ELLIOT DAWSON Yeah. And in an ideal world, you would have a database where you could put your chosen method of security closer and that would throw you up with the door sets that were accredited to take that system. That would be if I were a Winkhaus, or a Rutland, I would probably build that database so that any specifier could go on and say I want this security system. What doors have you tested with that?
WILL PERKINS That's exactly what we have done as a business because we manufacture actuators hardware and you click on and we've got 30 system companies that says he it's accredited.
ROY BUCKINGHAM If only were there…
JIM CREAK (Guest) You are with your door sets providing door closes, I assume.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So door sets will always cover the hardware that's part of it, because that's part of the CE certification for the door set or ultimately as a manufacturer you would want to ensure that you're hardly you're incorporating into your door set regards whether it's a or not is suitable and has its own performance testing for that hardware and to prove it suitability.
ELLIOT DAWSON Yes, and we test everything that is in our field of application. We are so heavily regulated. In our several, I think we've got six or seven different closes that we can use and a three or four different locks - they all obviously have been tested rigorously, more than once and on more than one size.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So certainly from Elliott perspective, you know they're doing all of their due diligence before they place their product, the door set onto the marketplace and therefore you've got that limited scope of being able to change products. So if somebody wants to add access control to one of their doors using a different functional locking element, then obviously they can't do that. But obviously when we go to door assemblies, that's a different ball game because you know people can and will define what they want on those doors.
WILL PERKINS But if we look at if we look at this another way and come at it from the security access point of view, have we got a question set for the security access control system?
ROY BUCKINGHAM I haven't focused on security access because obviously the mandatory requirements are escape and fire, so you know, regardless of what the security element is, the ones that you gotta comply with in the building regs escape and fire.
WILL PERKINS OK. So but coming at it from your hardware point of view, because I think that was the thing specifically we were talking about the electric side of things, which was the kind of chosen difficult subject we're talking about. If we came and that first illustration you showed us of the door with the electrics etc. If the client needed, what would you describe that as?
BUCKINGHAM ROY Yeah. So the electric locking device on the door, may be able to provide slightly different functionality depending on the product. But ultimately if it's being fitted to an escape door, then it has to be escape compliant, it has to meet the escape certifications I 179 E 1125. If it's obviously a fire door, then it's gotta be fire tested and that from a hardware perspective, that's do we end 1634 Part 1 as a manufacturer, we have to do fire testing against that standard. For the hardware only to prove its suitability for use in that application. That doesn't necessarily mean it's suitable to use in Elliott's door because although the harvest certification, it doesn't mean to say that the test evidence for the door can cover that hardware as well.
WILL PERKINS The answer is you need that evidence to be happy that it's gonna work. That's the point is. If we're starting from that electric locking device, isn't the question set a series of: Is it for escape? And if so…… UK CA marked door which is tested with this application? Is it for fire? Same question set, so it's actually flipping the question set and coming at it from this quite unique requirement which is the electric locking function.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So way of approaching this might be actually to think of it more as a flow chart. I'm working that down to arrive at your answers which there might give us the questions we need to put into this document I'm thinking.
WILL PERKINS But it's coming at it, not from the fire door to the hardware. It's actually coming at it from quite a unique requirement, which is electronic locking.
ROY BUCKINGHAM But it comes back to what I said at the beginning. What is the design function of the door? You know what is required from that door? Is it violated? Is it escape? Do you need to fail locked? Do you need to fail unlocked? All of those bits will filter down to arrive at your solution.
WILL PERKINS Correct. But the starting point is: I need electronic locking. That's the first question, isn't it? And everything else comes off there, doesn't it?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes, but again, you know the same applies to the mechanical hardware as well. So if the door's not electrically locked, you still got the same requirements.
WILL PERKINS Yeah, but the whole point of this exercise is we pick one very specific product and walk through that product and then you've got half an idea of how it hangs together.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, so, so I agree. Yeah, perhaps we need to come at it from a different approach. I haven't thought of that because obviously I was looking at the spreadsheet thinking about the spreadsheet and the questions that were that were there.
WILL PERKINS So the first statement rather than a question I guess is: Point 1. We need electronic locking.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So once we know that, then we kind of know what questions we then gotta ask, don't we?
ELLIOT DAWSON I will put: ‘Is the door internal or external?’ because a lot of manufacturers don't make escape doors. We will make internal stroke external composite doors but we don't make any escape doors whatsoever. Unless you would consider as escape door a standard composite which is just to the external part of the building.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, I would say that, I mean the definition of an escape door is any door that leads to or across an escape route. In other words, if you have to pass through that door in order to reach safety, then it's an escape door. Whether you dress it with hardware that meets the performance standard or whether you put a sign above it to say it's an escaped or will depend on certain other factors. But so you're flat. Engine still is effectively an escape door.
JIM CREAK (Guest) Sorry, sorry. Can I just interject and then do you do you test with the ordinary panic hardware on your sets?
ELLIOT DAWSON To be honest, we've not tested with any panic hardware. We literally just use a Standard DDA compliant handles with no pushboat push bars.
Jim Creak (Guest) So you can fix all of those to the door sets that you manufacture?
ELLIOT DAWSON Yes
WILL PERKINS And doesn’t it affect your UK, CA?
ELLIOT DAWSON No.
ROY BUCKINGHAM Well, from a composite door perspective, if you're thinking about that sort of flat entrance door or that flat rear entrance door, onto the balcony or whatever, you know, they're not covered by the escape regulations as such, you don't have to fit escape compliant hardware to those doors. You know the difference was on that door that we were looking at that led to the escape stairs is that's a communal door and therefore it's in a public area and therefore that does have to comply.
JIM CREAK (Guest) OK, I'll say it again. I'm only looking to give people advice. Do you know what I mean in terms of how they get round the particular problem of multi occupancy type places now that are above 11 meters. Then, with retrofitting, they are gonna have a big problem.
WILL PERKINS Again, there are so many questions that we can answer if we can try and bring it back to just the work one worked example. So what we're saying point number one, it's a statement. We do need an electrically locked door, OK, that's point 1. Now number 2: is it the door fire, does the door need to be fire rated if it does, what are the questions that need to be asked? I assume it's the number of minutes of fire rating, isn’t it?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes. Is the door fire rated? What is the rating?
WILL PERKINS So, the middle question is: is the door and escape door. What's the relevance of that?
ROY BUCKINGHAM So the electric lock would have to be seized in accordance with the escape standards. If it's that communal and escape door so IM179 or M1125.
WILL PERKINS So, actually if it's an escape door, actually, we need evidence so the relevance is we need evidence of either EM179 emergency or EM1125 panic via a DOP perspective. Yeah, because that's great because that's evidence that will go in the golden thread then. We said that was far test report. Fire test evidence.
ROY BUCKINGHAM The door need to fail locked or to fail unlocked. It is important to know which type of locking you might need to use.
WILL PERKINS Yes, so that's important because that's the specification of the product, isn't it? That's almost the second question. So that effectively that's product selection. One of what the other critical questions that you as a manufacturer product selector need to need to be asked. Because we're not looking for door data here. This is just about the hardware, isn't it?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yes
WILL PERKINS So are there any other questions that you would need ask if they said: ‘I want electrical lock door’. You'd say does it need to fail open or fail locked or faill unlocked? Are there any functional, any other functional questions?
JIM CREAK (Guest)
Well, we obviously had one about impinging on the fire strategy for fire fighters. Is that relevant here? ROY BUCKINGHAM But that comes under: ‘Is the door to fail unlocked or fail locked?’ Really because that would define whether or not the firefighters have access through it potentially. I would say it's to do with the security functionality, because that would also dictate potentially what hardware you might use. For instance, the electric locked that we looked at the beginning, that would have various monitoring functions to determine that you can you can monitor the door is in the closed as well as the locked state. You could monitor if somebody uses the key or you could monitor the handle down from an access control perspective to give valid request to exit.
JIM CREAK (Guest) I was thinking early on in terms of the disability side of things as well about this overriding security because I've seen so many retrofits for the overrides being being in totally inappropriate places.
WILL PERKINS From an architect point of view, I don't know what 7273 part 4 or 13 six is. What does that mean?
ROY BUCKINGHAM OK, so if a door is electrically controlled and has to be electrically unlocked, that would be where you might have a green break glass type scenario. So you've got a manual release to remove power from the locking element to allow the door to be free for escape. Or you might have a firearm interface that automatically unlocks the door and removes power to unlock that door. So there's two ways of achieving that solution. One is BS7273, part 4, that's actually a fire alarm standard, which is the actuation of the release mechanism for the door. So it either allows an electrically held open door to automatically close to provide the compartmentation, or an electrically locked door to be electrically unlocked to allow escape. But that standard only covers what the fire alarm does. It doesn't cover the system on the door, so current best practice would instead to be to use the E 13637 standard which is for an electric electrically controlled exit system for use on an escape route. So that covers the whole system, including the locking element that fits to the door. But instead of having the green break glass, there would be an escape door system terminal that sits adjacent to the door, which would provide that manual release function as such.
WILL PERKINS So is the EN 13637 a hardware standard?
ROY BUCKINGHAM Yeah, it's a hardware standard that covers the system, not to an individual component. So it covers the actuation, the release and the blocking on the door.
WILL PERKINS OK, so that's a really important standard that that people need to be aware of.
ROY BUCKINGHAM So we mentioned 14351 earlier. If it was an external door then that would require this solution rather than this solution.
WILL PERKINS And is 13637 the hardware and the door tested together?
ROY BUCKINGHAM No, it is purely a system standard for escape locking, not for the door.
WILL PERKINS OK, so it's a relevant hardware standard. OK, That needs to be in there. It's an incredibly complex subject. How do you want to move forward on this? Do you wanna revisit this or do you want to do you wanna come back next time or do you wanna go? I've done enough. Somebody else take up the running.
ROY BUCKINGHAM I will sort of think around this and the flow chart and perhaps, you know, come up with something that, I can feed back in. And then we can share that and everybody can have a look at it, but we can focus on a different subject area next time as such. We were looking at it at a very granular level from a component perspective on this one.
WILL PERKINS Which is really important, which we've gotta do because that's ohh timidly, where the level we've gotta go down to with the golden thread.