{"id":262,"date":"2023-11-21T11:30:01","date_gmt":"2023-11-21T11:30:01","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/bim4housing.com\/iq-contractual\/?page_id=262"},"modified":"2023-11-21T12:52:59","modified_gmt":"2023-11-21T12:52:59","slug":"bim4housing-contractual-workstream-meeting-13-11-2023","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/bim4housing.com\/iq-contractual\/bim4housing-contractual-workstream-meeting-13-11-2023\/","title":{"rendered":"BIM4HOUSING CONTRACTUAL WORKSTREAM MEETING 13-11-2023"},"content":{"rendered":"
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BIM4HOUSING CONTRACTUAL WORKSTREAM MEETING 13-11-2023<\/strong><\/h2>\n

MARTIN ADIE \u2026referred to in the guidance which we all know quite well, like the gateways, aren\u2019t actually in the legislation which s quite surprising. I heard about it on Thursday and we reviewed it today, but the gateways don\u2019t appear in the legislation, they call them something else.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

PAUL McSOLEY Were you talking about the key information?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE No, we were talking about the difference between legislation and guidance and how it\u2019s becoming more and more noticeable the more you get into it.\u00a0 The example I was giving was the gateways. I think most people in the industry who\u2019ve had a dabbling with this know what the gateways are, but I think most people would be shocked (like George was) to find out that they\u2019re not actually mentioned in the legislation. The legislation refers to building control application.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE I\u2019m very busy at the moment, I think a lot of people are very confused.<\/span><\/p>\n

PAUL McSOLEY The best one we came up with recently was we were doing this thing for the industry leaders for ASFP and PFKG and we came out with a slogan: I\u2019ve got 99 problems and the bat ain\u2019t one. And it\u2019s so true, it\u2019s not the fire <\/span>? 2mins 17secs <\/span>that\u2019s the issue, it\u2019s everything else that sits before it. Was it the digital records being the golden kipper? If you\u2019re not careful. I can\u2019t stay, unfortunately, I\u2019ve got to jump into another meeting. Is anyone at London Build this week?<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE I\u2019m not planning to be, but I have been asked this morning as to whether I\u2019m going, so it\u2019s possible. I was engaged with Iain McIlwee on Thursday\/Friday because what I\u2019m trying to do is get some simplified data. I was going to ask you Paul, for the asset types, in particular the Regulation 38 types, I\u2019m trying to see if we can simplify that information that\u2019s needed that differentiates between a door and a pump, just at a very high level. I\u2019ve been going through looking at what we\u2019ve been creating over the years in BIM and IFC and from an asset management point of view there\u2019s probably only 2 or 3 things that you need to know about a door that would supplement what you have in a data sheet. I was explaining that to Iain and he sent me back what the Guild of Ironmongers have produced and I\u2019ve not had the time to finish my reply, but the level of complexity that they (and most people) are asking for is just too big. I think we\u2019re going to be asking too much of people and therefore we\u2019re not getting anything.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

PAUL McSOLEY What I\u2019ve found is that unless you get it into a workbook guidance like we did with NAD recently with the damper stuff people just can\u2019t process it. And it\u2019s really hard for the architectural community because they\u2019re really struggling to process any of it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE (<\/span>shares screen<\/span><\/i>). This is a data sheet out of what we did with the BRE and all of these values down on the left hand side are things that are BIM library elements that we built into the template. And what I\u2019m finding is that asking people for things like security rating, even handicapped accessible and things like that, this is all information that probably would be in a data sheet. I\u2019m not trying to dumb things down but I actually think that asking people for 10 or 15 attributes against something like a door is too much. So what I want to know, for example, fire rating, I probably do want to know what the fire rating is. I probably do want to know whether it\u2019s got a door closer, and maybe the height as well, but the rest of the attributes can be in a data sheet. I sent this to Iain and he said here\u2019s an alternative suggestion (<\/span>changes the document displayed on screen<\/span><\/i>). This is from the Guild of Ironmongers and can you imagine who would be filling in this level of detail? There\u2019s information on how the thing is constructed or built, things about the seals.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m not saying that this information wouldn\u2019t be wonderful to have, but the challenge with that is a lot of these things could be in a data sheet, which is what they\u2019ve done here which is good. But to ask anybody to fill out, it\u2019s 180 values, it\u2019s just not going to happen, and I just wanted to share that with you. You know the thing that I\u2019ve been pushing for which we\u2019re still on the journey with is having a Bim4housing product library just with data sheets in it, but if we could have\u2026A lot of this information about manufacturer, the reference, the model number, that\u2019s standard COBie information that could be captured across the board. There is nothing special about that that is different for a door as it is for a window or\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n

You can see why we get into the weeds so quickly because even Iain, who\u2019s very knowledgeable, we end up with\u2026the question is who would fill that in? Because the information is going to come from lots of different people.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

PAUL McSOLEY (<\/span>shares screen<\/span><\/i>). The key with this is you\u2019ve got to look at the different actors and say to yourself, even with this one here that\u2019s all been published in NADAC? 10mins 36secs is someone goes through all of this different thing to understand what the risk of the space is. Then you fill in the basic requirements of what that functional piece of kit should do. The issue with doors is going to be very similar to things like pipework where you have a lot of other things that you need to consider in the mix to get yourself to what the condition is for one pipe. So when you think about it you say, I\u2019m not going into the level of detail about the type of mastic and thing that\u2019s being used, that is something which is a response to a designed condition. What I\u2019ve done is described the condition in an Excel file and say that\u2019s actually what it is.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So doors should be no different, if you put a door on the schedule and went OK, what function is the door performing, is it a Doc-M, is it a Part P, security, is it Part B? You can list out all the things that door is doing and then you can look at the space risk of what it\u2019s supposed to do. The difference will come is if it\u2019s got a security function somebody has got to put down what that security function is, this goes back to old school door schlepping. When it comes to inserting it in the model the manufacturer of the door needs to have their model sheet, and we\u2019re miles away from this, with all of the functionality of the kit. So you can take all of that 100 and something items like I did for dampers and that\u2019\u2019s the only bit of information that I need is that bit there. The rest of it comes down to the function of actually some of it\u2019s the coordination of the wall. The bottom line here is describing the right product that you need. Does that make sense?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE It does, but can I just say what you\u2019re doing here is illustrating exactly where I think the problem is. You\u2019re looking at things from a design and installation and product selection perspective, the other dimension on this is what\u2019s needed for asset management.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

PAUL McSOLEY No, I\u2019m with you, I just don\u2019t think that bit is in any shape, form or fashion yet to get it right. And that\u2019s what that sheet is telling you, no one is ready to do that yet.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE But we could have something simple which basically said what do we need to know about a smoke damper that\u2019s different to a door, for example.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

PAUL McSOLEY Which is only two examples, that\u2019s the two differences, that one versus that one.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE But that\u2019s from a design perspective. What I\u2019m saying is from an asset management perspective what would I need to know about a smoke damper? There\u2019s a fire rating, some things are going to have fire ratings and some things aren\u2019t so therefore\u2026maybe I\u2019m being to simplistic.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

PAUL McSOLEY No, what it is, it\u2019s only an asset data nightmare when it comes to changing it for a different product at a later date. That\u2019s the bit that\u2019s the problem.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE And if you\u2019re going to do that then for me that kicks into a different workflow. That\u2019s about design. Does that make sense?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yeah. So if you\u2019re just replacing like for like you\u2019re not having to worry about design.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Exactly, and when you\u2019re replacing like for like as long as you\u2019ve got access to the data sheet and as long as the data sheet contains what it\u2019s supposed to contain then you\u2019ve got that. But what an asset manager would want to know is which doors are 30 minute doors, which doors have got door closers. It\u2019s at that basic level and I think we\u2019re just overwhelming people with the request for too much information and I think we need to do it in\u2026baby steps. It\u2019s to get people down that journey because at the end of the day the client organisations also aren\u2019t interested themselves in the detail about how that product was selected. We need to know how it was selected and when you replace it for something else, but that would be a different competent person. At the end of the day from a general management point of view you just want to know the basics.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Just for my benefit, George, why do they need to know that? Why do they need to know the basics even? What is it you\u2019re trying to achieve? Is it some sort of inventory list for insurance? Is it some sort of\u2026.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Under Regulation 38 they have to have the data that they need to be able to manage the building safely and therefore knowing what key assets are installed, where they are and what systems they\u2019re part of, they\u2019re some basic things. If we can also record against each asset type a data sheet for that particular item, from the manufacturer, and we can also record the basic thing about it. Because the thing is with standard COBie, all it\u2019s doing is recording manufacturer, model number, warranty, installation date etc. It doesn\u2019t say what it is, all its dong is giving that level of detail, so therefore if we could identify just whether something\u2026most things that are part of wall compartments, for example, have got a fire rating. So therefore if we could identify within the information requirements the fire rating that would be an important thing to do.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

If you\u2019ve got a pump or a damper, I don\u2019t know if there is a parameter that on a damper that would allow you to target how you\u2019re supposed to inspect it (or whatever) without having to go to a data sheet, the data sheet gives you the background information. And I\u2019m thinking we could do this, somebody like Paul or Callum\u2026(<\/span>break in audio<\/span><\/i>).\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE \u2026From the data sheet that\u2019s required here, is that not an easier way to do this? Or you\u2019d need to ask the question again?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE No, it could well be an extract from the data sheet, but universally we don\u2019t have the data sheets yet.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Am I looking forward here whereas your looking back?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Yeah, I\u2019m looking at where we are at the moment and how we can get something useful today, and it\u2019s also the case I\u2019m looking forward. In practical terms what I think as a Tier 1 you\u2019ve got to do is manage that change management process and technical submittals, we\u2019re now working with several contractors that are going through that exercise and everybody has got a slightly different process. But one thing that should be common is that you need a data sheet for the product that your designers have recommended that is the baseline to work from. What I\u2019m trying to do is look at the most practical way of getting that and it\u2019s proving more difficult than I\u2019d feared.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I recall you saying a while ago that\u2019s just something that we just require people to do. I think it would be great if we could do that, but we have to give them a very simple way to follow it through so therefore if we could simply ask them to provide a data sheet against a very basic set of information about who the door manufacturer is, the model number and the absolutely critical information then that would help.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE So, is it critical information for reordering purposes?<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Yes, or indeed planning work, maybe doing inspections, in fact that\u2019s probably more\u2026when you\u2019re commissioning, when you\u2019re doing your handover and inspections and things like that what would you expect the person that is doing that to feed back as key information about that fire damper.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Various tests, various performance characteristics for a damper, but you\u2019d be talking about something that was installed and detailed and shown on a drawing and specified. So it was that damper in that room, this type and here\u2019s the results that have been achieved when it was tested for X, Y, Z.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE And those would typically all be individual documents.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yeah, they\u2019d probably end up in the O&M files.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE That have been gathered by different people using different methods and therefore the opportunities for something to be missing or misclassified are huge. So what I\u2019m trying to get to is a simpler way of organising it so that you can say that there is a specification and OK, you\u2019ve probably got a specification that\u2019s maybe several hundred pages. You want to be able to record which page or which pages refer to that particular smoke damper and have that as a record. So in other words I\u2019m not looking to have everything digital, but just having it referenced properly.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yeah, the spec, it\u2019s a good place to start if you\u2019re going to cross-reference it away.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE And then have that reference to what was installed and if there is a drawing for where it is make sure that whatever reference key on the drawing is referenced in the same way in the schedule that refers back to the spec and then to be able to record the manufacturers information. Because generally what\u2019s in a drawing and what\u2019s in the spec isn\u2019t manufacturer specific, it\u2019s a performance requirement. And even if it is specific you don\u2019t know that\u2019s what was actually purchased, whereas if we can schedule what was actually installed with the information about whether it is a 30 or 60 minute device that\u2019s been put in, rather than just what the spec was but what the actual product was, so it\u2019s a matter of just stitching those things together. I have to say one of the problems is that nobody is asking the questions that I\u2019m just asking because everybody is diving down into more detail and it\u2019s the simple workflow of saying how does that technical submittal actually reflect back to what actually was installed.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t know if, you know your colleagues <\/span>Peter and David<\/span><\/i>, I\u2019m just wondering if one of those might be able to, whether we could have a chat with both of those. What\u2019s Peter\u2019s role?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Peter is a passive fire inspector. It\u2019s Peter Vassilev and David Wright. David <\/span>does<\/span><\/i> similar <\/span>work<\/span><\/i>, but active fire.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE They\u2019d be good people to talk to.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yeah. I\u2019m just wondering about things that are nothing to do with fire, trying to simplify it in my head at the moment. If you started off with\u2026there\u2019s the specification, MBS split it into common sense work groupings, it can be improved but it\u2019s better than nothing. If they were calling off ceiling tiles within the specification they would do that, they\u2019d give you some base information. It might get finessed during a supply chain design agreement etc, but in terms of the asset manager coming back and saying I want to replace the ceiling tiles in this room, what the hell are they. If you started off with the specification he\u2019s got a starting point and then aligned that to the material data sheet. There\u2019s no in between which is what I think you\u2019re looking for.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Yes. When you say material data sheet you mean the product data sheet.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yes, that would be the next step. That\u2019s what we used to satisfy that specification clause.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE One of the challenges is there is a constant reference to other standards. So, for example, you\u2019d think with a door that you\u2019d be able to get a fire rating, wouldn\u2019t you?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE It\u2019s a complicated topic in this country, unfortunately. We measure fire resistance rather than fire ratings.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE But on the data sheet it will say fire rating\u2026and that\u2019s what, for a lay person, gets very confusing. (<\/span>shares screen<\/span><\/i>). You see here for example fire rating, is it resistance to fire, reaction to fire and if you then wanted to know about it you\u2019ve got to go and look at two\u2026whereas actually you just want to know from, or maybe you just want to know from the manufacturer what is it? Is it 30 or 60 minute? If you\u2019re designing a new one then that\u2019s a different matter, maybe. I\u2019m a layperson so I\u2019m not burdened with proper knowledge, but I\u2019m just asking what I think are practical questions.<\/span><\/p>\n

Martin, could we perhaps set something up for an hour with colleagues?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Can do, George. I\u2019m not sure they\u2019ll be able to help anymore than I could. I think it\u2019s easier when you\u2019re looking at components that need supply chain design input because then you are effectively doing, as you were saying, technical submittals. But the vast majority fo stuff that gets installed into a building, I think we\u2019re drawing a blank because we don\u2019t do technical submittals, we just react or respond and purchase the stuff that\u2019s listed in the spec, like the ceiling tiles.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Yeah, I think the things I want to concentrate on are the things that are important from a building safety point of view, which isn\u2019t just fire, it\u2019s smoke, ventilation, structure and things like that. So, I think if we could crack it with maybe the items that are needed for Regulation 38 then it would give a context that people can understand and then they can start to run a little bit further. I think it\u2019s getting things started which sounds frustrating after all of the years. Phil\u2019s done a huge amount of work over the years at NG Bailey and with ETIM and GS1 and the like to actually look at things from a classification point of view, but the level of detail that different product types and asset types need is very different for a merchant or a procurement person than it is for s designer or an installer.<\/span><\/p>\n

PHIL THOMPSON If I could just add in there, as George said i have spent a lot of time wrestling with this problem in the industry. From a procurement perspective or a transactional procurement perspective there is very little information required by the merchants, other than the identifier and the price that\u2019s going to be paid\u2026purchase order and there is a chasm there in the industry as to what is actually being selected. You made a valid point there about the legitimacy of information where there is a specification or where you\u2019re working with a manufacturer on a highly complex piece of plant. But as you come down the scale and you get to the lower echelons of products, especially where there is high volume and low value, there is no real governance in place as far as I can see.<\/span><\/p>\n

George did mention safety critical, again that\u2019s an area that I\u2019ve been keen to highlight because there\u2019s lots of safety critical products which fall into that category of low value, for instance fixings, and as far as I can see the industry is still the wild west with merchants providing pretty much what they want.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Which was the conversation last month.<\/span><\/p>\n

PHIL THOMPSON It\u2019s a perennial conversation because nobody is really dealing with it, the conversations I\u2019m having, everyone is still working at the kind of top of the scale and trying to get complex solutions in place, but what about the basics? Sorry to vent, but i\u2019m still seeing this today with the contract that I\u2019m dealing with.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Martin, how are you dealing with the change control process now? Do you think you\u2019ve got that reasonably well cracked?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Not reasonably well cracked, cracked. We\u2019re going to trial it on one of the legacy projects to see how it runs. Equally, we don\u2019t think there is anything new there, we think we do change control because it\u2019s important to do it from a commercial perspective.\u00a0 So, there\u2019s all sorts of software out there, some customers insist on things like CEMAR for managing change control. So, we take the Regulator at face value, they wanted to keep this simple, they wanted to build on what people were already doing. There\u2019s nuances to the change control, but change control shouldn\u2019t come as a culture shock to people in the industry because a lot of it goes on. Logging it properly and keeping digital records, less so, but it can be done.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE I was in a panel a couple of weeks ago with Scott Sanderson from PRP and he explained to me that on a particular project they were having to process 12,000 techsubs.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Change control can be more, there is always a myriad of changes, and involving the Regulator and deciding which ones are notifiable, which ones are major and so on is going to take a bit of governance and a bit of <\/span>intervention? 37mins 29sec<\/span>s.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Have you defined what those are?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE They are defined, yes. Majors and notifiable, consequential, there\u2019s quite a few definitions. But the definitions are out there, definitely.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Down to asset type or product type?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Any change has to be recorded, but whether you tell the Regulator or not, or get approval from the Regulator, it depends on its impact. Apparently it\u2019s the first document that the Regulator is going to ask for if they ever visit site, on an HRB site they would ask to see the change control log before they see anything.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE So those notifiable ones, is that relatively straightforward for me to find?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yes, it is. I\u2019ll send you something on change control.<\/span><\/p>\n

PHIL THOMPSON Is there any evidence out there at the moment of organisations, clients, contractors doing this well? And where there isn\u2019t a need for change control i.e. there has been no change, because I\u2019m conscious that change control is necessary but sometimes people think we haven\u2019t changed anything so we don\u2019t need to get into the nitty gritty of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE I\u2019d love to work on a project where there has been no change, it has just never happened.<\/span><\/p>\n

PHIL THOMPSON I appreciate that I\u2019m playing devil\u2019s advocate a little bit because I know there\u2019s always change, but some products don\u2019t necessarily\u2026you made the point earlier about some things are not specified, so in which case then there is no change in the sense that there is information of the differences between the two. If somebody just says to the merchant send me X, Y, Z, do we have evidence at the moment of organisations capturing that information and what does it look like?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Requisitions, I\u2019d imagine. Requisitions and orders and delivery notes.<\/span><\/p>\n

PHIL THOMPSON Yeah, and my experience of that is that that\u2019s done in many different formats from structured data on an ERP system to an email which is not even done in a structured way. I\u2019d just be interested to see a best practice example.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE It might be worth asking the merchants on that one.<\/span><\/p>\n

PHIL THOMPSON I have done, I\u2019m still waiting. But the problem is, and I suppose to be fair to the merchants because they\u2019re looking after their interests, is that they\u2019ll process anything. You can send them a fax or a post-it note or scribble it on a fag packet. They\u2019re under no obligation to push back and say I\u2019m sorry, that\u2019s not structured data, we\u2019re not supplying it, they will literally put it on the van that day because they want the invoice paid. So where\u2019s the governance or the emphasis on the merchant to do the right thing?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Great point. Don\u2019t have the answer on that one.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE I\u2019m going to have to jump in a minute because I\u2019ve got a client meeting. Is there anything, Martin, that you\u2019d like us to be looking at doing?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE No, I don\u2019t think so George, nothing jumps out at the moment. I think everybody\u2019s in the same position, everybody is getting used to this and dealing with it to varying degrees of success. The proof will come in the pudding.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Richard was just saying that we\u2019ve got almost 200 people already signed up for the session next week, so we might get some good questions coming out of that.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yeah, I honestly think the Regulator is in the same place as everybody else, trying to understand it. I think the appetite for working in the high-risk building sector is restricted, limited, I don\u2019t think there is an appetite for it, certainly from developers and designers and contractors. So when the first few starts stumbling through its going to have a lot of eyes on it.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Yes, absolutely, and the targets for building more homes.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE Yeah, I just don\u2019t think they\u2019ll be more than 17 metres in the air, so they are not high-risk. I think people are going to avoid it like the plague, quite frankly.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE 17.8. But the point is it\u2019s not just about the height of the building because if a lot of them are the Fire Safety Act information, the Act is relevant to all buildings.<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE And all building regs as well, we\u2019re all supposed to comply with all building regs, but 90% of what people are talking about is high-risk stuff. I don\u2019t think that will get properly sorted and understood until two or three years through people having done them.<\/span><\/p>\n

GEORGE Are you going to the Homes exhibition?<\/span><\/p>\n

MARTIN ADIE No, we\u2019re unbelievably busy at the moment <\/span>with<\/span><\/i> legacy issues and there\u2019s not enough people to do the work we need to do,<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

BIM4HOUSING CONTRACTUAL WORKSTREAM MEETING 13-11-2023 MARTIN ADIE \u2026referred to in the guidance which we all know quite well, like the gateways, aren\u2019t actually in the legislation which s quite surprising. I heard about it on Thursday and we reviewed it today, but the gateways don\u2019t appear in the legislation, they call them something else.\u00a0 PAUL…<\/p>\n

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