{"id":206,"date":"2023-02-21T07:53:57","date_gmt":"2023-02-21T07:53:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/bim4housing.com\/iq-contractual\/?page_id=206"},"modified":"2023-02-21T07:57:59","modified_gmt":"2023-02-21T07:57:59","slug":"contractual-workstream-session-2","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/bim4housing.com\/iq-contractual\/contractual-workstream-session-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Contractual Workstream Session 2"},"content":{"rendered":"
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Contractual Workstream - Session 2-20220523<\/strong><\/h2>\n

PAUL MCSOLLEY talks about a meeting he had with ANNA (digital director of Scott Brownrigg).<\/p>\n

MARTIN thinks that, \u2018in terms of upstream, contractual relationships and requirements, we can\u2019t go legalistic to say these are the standard conditions you must work to. What we can do is use our knowledge and reflect it upline and align it to what the government\u2019s act and publications are saying. The backbone of this should be the collaborative procurement document put out by the government in January. Martin shares on screen the document he\u2019s talking about. He reads out something significant from the document<\/em> :\u2019Fire instruction safety issues can be exacerbated by poor procurement including poorly designed tender specifications, 11th hour contractual appointments, lack of appropriate engagement with the supply chain, contract forms\u2026.the basis if what we\u2019ve been talking about\u2019.<\/p>\n

PAUL MCSOLLEY breaks down what that text means: \u2018lack of appropriate engagement with the supply chain means we\u2019re not basing it on product because we are arguing about the money, contract forms which prioritise\u2026costs is the design and build\u2019. He shows a document on screen with \u2018the energy stuff<\/em>\u2019. He says to make a \u2018one pager\u2019 and that a lot of it is going to be in the procurement document that Martin spoke about.<\/p>\n

GEORGE says that there is now a great deal of government standards\/guidance that is not very well joined up. People need to be able to absorb whatever the contractual workstream produces - to break it down in small elements so people can confirm they have understood it.<\/p>\n

GEORGE shows on screen a Bim4housing document giving guidance for the 12 principal asset types<\/em>. The focus is on the many things that people have shared that they think is important for different purposes. last week, that info was taken and put into a format - a master list of all of the information requirements and then asked people to say \u2018Who needs that information? who would you get that information from?\u2019. The idea is if we know that then we can say e.g. who, principally, will tell us what the material of the facings are etc. There are 88 different properties (that\u2019s probably too many for some items).<\/p>\n

MARTIN says this is a quality assurance type model, he\u2019s uncertain if it\u2019s the right model to use for collaborative working\u2026because you are talking about accountability and responsibility. GEORGE thinks he may be right, but it depends how it\u2019s used - \u2018we\u2019re not trying to use it to transfer blame\u2019. RICHARD says that it depends how you define it. MARTIN points out that the residents are missing from the parties involved. GEORGE says there is a lot of interest from the Tier1 group.<\/p>\n

MARTIN says he wants to concentrate today on upstream, contractual stipulations, downstream to the supply chain (he\u2019s not sure how to deal with that one), but if it\u2019s correct upstream it reflects through downstream. He doesn\u2019t sense a degree of urgency or understanding from the design community compared to the supply chain and other Tier1s. PAUL MCSOLLEY doesn\u2019t expect architects to know about every detail of construction and materials, but he does expect the fire strategy people\/engineers to be prescriptive about the standards used (low volume level\/microphone cutting out).<\/p>\n

RICHARD says that with the other groups the recording\/high points\/minutes documents is put on their section of the Bim4hosuing website. He asks them if it\u2019s OK to do that with this contractual group. They are OK with that. He\u2019s conscious that they may be wary of collusion issues, but with this that shouldn\u2019t be the case if it\u2019s made transparent.<\/p>\n

PAUL MCSOLLEY shows a document on screen<\/em>. Part 3, penetration seals. Looking at the rule sets, it\u2019s all dependent on whether it\u2019s combustible or non-combustible. Is the consultant choosing that material? No, because everyone\u2019s going for best value for the employer and they\u2019re changing pipe work material. (low volume level\/microphone cutting out)\u2026..how does a consultant know what\u2019s being bought? They don\u2019t know what the contractor is going to choose. They need to know if it\u2019s Integrity, Information, Low leakage. If there are so many things to consider the consultants can\u2019t work it out???<\/em> The issue with the service providers like dampers, ducts, walls is they don\u2019t know what the other people have to do in their test. You put a wall to a damper, not a damper to a wall.<\/p>\n

PAUL MCSOLLY considers that the the David Moseley document (as brought up earlier by MARTIN) is significant. he makes changes to the document displayed on screen. He writes as a heading<\/em> \u2018Fire Safety Case and Golden Thread overview\u2019. He re-arranges other parts of the document<\/em>.<\/p>\n

PAUL MCSOLLEY: \u2018We all know something\u2019s wrong, but we don\u2019t know how to fix it\u2019. (low volume level\/microphone cutting out). MARTIN says \u2018the more we talk, the more I don\u2019t know what the answer is\u2019. He lists the numerous reason other parties can\u2019t do it and thinks the answer must lie with themselves (the contractors). You can\u2019t expect the designers to have the answer as they are not sufficiently engaged. The individual supply chain suppliers and installers are just too varied and diverse - it\u2019s going to have to come back to us. PAUL agrees - \u2018we need to get better, we have to stop passing the risk down the line. We\u2019ve got to tell the client \u2018if you want me to sign this contract, this is what we need to do to get to that point\u2026are you willing to do that?\u2019. If they say no you have to say \u2018I can\u2019t build your job\u2019 - no one want to do it\u2019.<\/p>\n

MARTIN thinks it will lead to more pre-construction service agreements. We need to be offering keys to the Gateways. PAUL is going to send the document to MARTIN<\/em>.<\/p>\n

ADDENDUM <\/strong><\/p>\n

EMAILS <\/strong><\/p>\n

Iain McIlwee\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

I think based on what I heard today I think we need to consider a standard clause to cover those delays.\u00a0 Right now, we simply don't know so think we need a standard term to say in the event if a delay related to regulatory procedures yet to be fully described...<\/p>\n

Marc <\/strong><\/p>\n

Really appreciate you taking the time to do this.<\/p>\n

Makes sense. Aligns very much with my thoughts that that in many cases we need to get better at doing something we should already be doing. \u00a0Aside from the functional requirements of the BR, for me that is proving competence, reviewing and verifying design, robust change control, validating what we actually built is what we designed, being able to prove this every step of the way and providing this information in a form the end user can fulfill their duties going forward.<\/p>\n

All of this could potentially fall under the \u2018reasonably foreseeable\u2019 category.<\/p>\n

The tricky element will be whether design and delivery programmes need to account for a Gateway approval period (not to mention the BSR falling over in achieving a 12 week response period as the new regime gets up to speed). Could get very interesting in financially closing PCSA\u2019s in the coming months! \u00a0\u2026and so the journey goes on \ud83d\ude42\u00a0<\/p>\n

Iain<\/strong><\/p>\n

Hope well.\u00a0 I was at an event today with the HSE (Martin was there too, so please feel free to contradict if you took a different view).\u00a0 I took the opportunity to ask directly about timings of the Gateways and whether it would be staged i.e. Gateway 2 coming in first and then Gateway 3.\u00a0 What I took from her response was that this is detail to be determined, but the expectation is that we know what the functional requirements of the Building Regs are, regardless of Gateways we can be held to account for these in the future through the Act so the rest is admin, basically we should be compliant now and better at proving it by October 23.\u00a0 So I think you are safest to assume your initial assertion is correct, despite any clever argument a lawyer can make.\u00a0<\/p>\n

MARC Bradfield<\/strong><\/p>\n

Apologies for not being in attendance yesterday.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Something I would be interested on your opinions\u2026\u2026<\/p>\n

Previously I was of the view that no matter what the date for Gateway 2 and 3 to come into play, the transitional arrangements would limit carrying on \u2018business as usual\u2019 So even if you had commenced prior to the trigger date you would still be required to pass through Gateway 3 (pre-occupation) should completion fall beyond this point.<\/p>\n

A recent article by Pinsent Masons (attached) indicates that is not likely to be the case.\u00a0 They also are of the view that the trigger date is October 2023 i.e schemes commenced before that date continue under the \u2018current regulatory regime\u2019.<\/p>\n

As a further point of interest in an interview at the start of May with Peter Baker, head of the new Building Safety Regulator he said \u201cFrom October 2023, building owners will assume responsibility for fire and safety risks, and we, as the BSR, will be able to flex our muscles as a regulator in ensuring that building owners actually deliver their responsibilities. The building gateway system will follow, with the industry on notice to produce their certificate applications and safety cases, starting around April 2024.\u201d \u2013 so differing from the Pinsent Masons view above and meaning it is difficult to figure out exactly what the trigger date is for the Gateways!<\/p>\n

Iain<\/strong><\/p>\n

Apologies I will be tied up for this one too.\u00a0 If it could be moved to early pm I\u2019ll be there boots and all.<\/p>\n

Martin<\/strong><\/p>\n

Please feel free to invite other interested parties<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Contractual Workstream – Session 2-20220523 PAUL MCSOLLEY talks about a meeting he had with ANNA (digital director of Scott Brownrigg). MARTIN thinks that, \u2018in terms of upstream, contractual relationships and requirements, we can\u2019t go legalistic to say these are the standard conditions you must work to. What we can do is use our knowledge and…<\/p>\n

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MARTIN thinks that, \u2018in terms of upstream, contractual relationships and requirements, we can\u2019t go legalistic to say these are the standard conditions you must work to. 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