{"id":459,"date":"2023-07-04T09:01:52","date_gmt":"2023-07-04T09:01:52","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/bim4housing.com\/fire-safety\/?page_id=459"},"modified":"2023-07-04T09:09:56","modified_gmt":"2023-07-04T09:09:56","slug":"smoke-dampers-bim4housing-roundtables-22-06-2023","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/bim4housing.com\/fire-safety\/smoke-dampers-bim4housing-roundtables-22-06-2023\/","title":{"rendered":"SMOKE DAMPERS BIM4HOUSING ROUNDTABLES 22-06-2023"},"content":{"rendered":"
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SMOKE DAMPERS BIM4HOUSING ROUNDTABLES 22-06-2023<\/strong><\/h2>\n

RICHARD This is meeting is to upgrade, make in line with the building safety and fire safety acts work we did a couple of years ago identifying ways of mitigating risk within 12 fire critical assets. We drilled down very deeply asking 5 questions. This was not a static document, there were a lot of upgrades from comments, emails and conversations, we decided it was a good idea to sit down and go through the process. We\u2019re changing that slightly, which George will explain to you now. <\/p>\n

GEORGE (shares screen). For people that haven\u2019t been involved, I wanted to explain what BIM4Housing is about. We\u2019ve got 6 working groups that address the different stakeholder groups within the industry and they meet once every 2 months. The purpose of those is to identify what is it that could be improved in each of those processes if you have better information. That\u2019s what really we call BIM - Better Information Management. And that spawned different workstreams who look at data, and we produce standardised information requirements, classifications, reusable data libraries, the main thing we\u2019re covering today are the 12 fire safety critical asset types. We\u2019ve also got work going on on carbon and also the digital record. <\/p>\n

One of the challenges we have is that different people need different information for different purposes and if you ask somebody what information do you need to know about a smoke damper you\u2019ll get a different answer depending on the context in which that\u2019s being asked. It might well be that some of that information could be fixed, e.g. a product data sheet, and some of it might be variable, so the data changes. One of the things that we\u2019re trying to do is to identify what are the differences between the two, ideally all of it should be machine-readable, but we\u2019ve got a lot to do so actually being able to get the active data (the stuff that changes) to be machine-readable is a good step forward. What we also want to do is to look at these in the context of safety case reports and to be able to identify what impacts on the safety case report, or a fire risk assessment, if the status of a smoke damper changes. When it changes then potentially the risk assessment should be rerun. <\/p>\n

And finally, we need to be able to tie back to an individual asset, because one of the things that\u2019s become clear is that a lot of the tools and processes that are currently being used, they\u2019re actually creating a unique record of the inspection, but it may not be tied back to that individual asset. So, that smoke damper may be checked twice a year over a period of 5 -10 years, but what we need to do is to make sure there is a record against that, irrespective of who\u2019s done that inspection. One of the challenges there is to have it so that we\u2019ve got a unique ID in a spatial model that you can then tie back to the data, so the information that we\u2019re saying is important, and it might be a document, or the product\u2019s information, or indeed locating it in the context of where that particular asset is. <\/p>\n

And if we do that then there is a range of different software applications that inspectors are using, like Plan Radar, Riskbase, Keystone, and what they\u2019re all doing is recording maybe the status of something and maybe the fact that works been carried out to it. But if we can identify it back to an individual unique asset then we\u2019ve got a chance of tracking things and producing the golden thread. This is just a brief thing saying why we need machine-readable product data for certain things. The majority of things on that data sheet are probably quite reasonable to be able to manually read, but things like fire rating you probably want to have as machine-readable information because you want to identify which doors are 30 minute or 60 minute, And here we\u2019ve got a different manufacturers data sheet and you\u2019ll see that the way fire rating itself is described is different. If we decide that fire rating is an important property of a door set, then we want it to be machine-readable. <\/p>\n

We\u2019ve been carrying out work over the last 2-3 years with HACT and producing standardised data libraries which could then be used to populate any software application, so it means that it can be kept up to date. So, if we\u2019ve got standardisation in terms of that it means that we can keep things current, so the safety cases, for example, or fire risk assessments are current. In doing that we created a reusable library with of all the asset types, the way the different FM systems within social landlords are calling things. And in some cases they call things, they\u2019ve got different names for them, so in this one we\u2019ve got an AOV or an opening vent or a smoke vent, but by classifying them all back to a single category (in this case Uniclass) you\u2019ve got a way of normalising that, so everybody is comparing apples with apples. And in the library we\u2019ve got 240 standard asset types of which 71 were fire related and 152 were safety related.<\/p>\n

The other thing is you might hear of BIM data and COBie data. The key thing about COBie data is that the high level COBie data is common to any asset type, irrespective of whether it\u2019s a smoke damper, a pump or a door, so there\u2019s nothing that makes it special. So, it\u2019s key to get this information, but it\u2019s common for all manufactured items. The thing that makes a difference is if a smoke vent or a damper had additional attribute information and the question then is (and this is part of what we\u2019re doing today) is what key attributes should we include? You might thing other people are doing this, like the BIM world, and the BIM world uses something called IFC and there\u2019s a data dictionary for that, but a lot of that information is really for design, rather than for procurement or asset management. And therefore there\u2019s a range of different classification systems and attributes that are for different purposes. Etim, for example, is what wholesalers use to be able to select and supply things. You might not have heard of that, but we\u2019re able to incorporate that as well. <\/p>\n

So the attributes for this AOV, these are the BIM attributes, so we\u2019ve got common things like width, height and depth, we\u2019ve also got fire rating, but there are certain parameters here that you may decide could be just in a data sheet and therefore we don\u2019t need to collect this as machine-readable information and that\u2019s really the purpose of these workshops. If we can get that data in a machine-readable form, then we can provide to installation contractors or manufacturers these type of data templates to fill in. So they don\u2019t have to put the information into the BIM models, in fact ideally they shouldn\u2019t be doing that, but they can just feed it into spreadsheets etc. <\/p>\n

To move on from there, about 2 years ago I was asked to lead the Golden Thread Initiative asset and survey information group, which was one of ten working groups set up to be able to advise the government on what information was needed. And when I asked people like Paul White and Stephen what information do we need to know about a smoke damper, they\u2019ll say \u2018it depends. It depends on where it\u2019s going, what wall it\u2019s going into etc. So, there\u2019s a lot of complexity there and we\u2019er expecting the government to tell us what to do and they\u2019re not going to, it\u2019s got to be up to us to interpret that information, so that\u2019s why we tried to concentrate on a maximum of 250 asset types so that we can track them through. And all of that work led to the creation of what we\u2019re gonna go through today. So, we\u2019ve done this exercise for all of those 12 asset types. One of the things we realise we probably ned to add onto this is lifts. <\/p>\n

By doing this we want to be able to see we can split aside the data from the geometry. The geometry, the CAD systems, the BIM systems, are there to really locate where things are, but we can hold the attribute information in databases which then can provide connections through to any software application, whether it be procurement or commissioning. And that means we can include things like the new BS8644 data very easily and also retrospectively. So, if you want to add that into your analysis of a building, maybe it\u2019s coming up to gateway review, then that\u2019s the sort of thing that can be done. This is showing you what we\u2019re going to be covering today. The publications we produced really described what a damper is in the context of\u2026what risks, this is the way the HSE asked us to look at things. So, rather than look at things from point of view of the asset itself they wanted to place it in the context of what risk is it mitigating. <\/p>\n

So, this is the first part we\u2019re going to look at. Then, what do people do to a smoke damper to stop it from working. We then come onto the key information here and that is what data do we need to ensure that it performs as required. These are the main things that we\u2019re identified, and then we move onto the tasks that are going to be needed, and there\u2019s an example here out of SFG20. Then the level of competencies needed and then how do we record changes. Broadly, that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to cover today. One final thing is that we did this exercise last year for some of the assets, but we\u2019ve not done it for smoke control yet and we\u2019ve not done it for smoke dampers, and that is identifying for each of these bits of information who is responsible for providing it. You might say, for example, the location should come from the designer and the trade contractor, but the client needs to be accountable etc. <\/p>\n

So, the principle idea of this is to go through each of these and then, with a follow-up session, be able to turn this into something useable. At the end of the day we\u2019re all volunteers and if we\u2019re asking you to give up your time we need to make sure we can give you something as an output at the end. <\/p>\n

RICHARD We\u2019re going to start on question 1. What risks do smoke control dampers mitigate?<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I have to say it looks like a pretty comprehensive list. I'm not sure that the last one is something that they mitigate because actually they are chucking it directly outside. So I don't think they mitigate the risk to the environment, I think during a fire they probably make it worse.<\/p>\n

RICHARD Yeah, that\u2019s clearly wrong, isn\u2019t it. Good one. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE That\u2019s the whole point of them is to get it out of the inside and to the outside to protect people. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Risk of system failure, is the item part of a system? We\u2019re talking about the individual item here, not the system, aren\u2019t we? <\/p>\n

RICHARD It\u2019s a funny one, because we are talking about the individual item, but at the same time you maybe have to talk about it in context. <\/p>\n

GEORGE We discussed this on Monday. I think what we need to do at the moment is probably concentrate on the individual asset and then look at the system as a wider thing. I absolutely agree with the process of making sure that we\u2019ve got the systems sorted. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yeah, I think that is a risk to the system rather than to something that the smoke control damper mitigates in itself, because it could contribute to failure, that\u2019s the point. <\/p>\n

RICHARD Right, so that\u2019s another one to go. Risk of system failure. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I think that that\u2019s not one of the points, I think that might be a comment that goes after the table. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Because it is about an individual asset we\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n

RICHARD Question 1b: what compromises a smoke control dampers ability to perform as required? So, what are the risks to the actual performance of smoke control dampers themselves? Let\u2019s look at the headings: we\u2019ve got the general section, materials, installation. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE It\u2019s not the risk of the wrong supporting construction because that\u2019s the wrong point, it\u2019s the risk of incorrect installation. You can\u2019t have a wrong supporting construction, you just have the supporting construction that is there. So, it\u2019s the installation of the smoke control damper to the construction or the duct work. <\/p>\n

RICHARD I see what you mean, the damper\u2019s got to fit in with and be flexible enough to be installed in the correct way, whatever it is going into. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE That\u2019s right, you\u2019ve got to select the right one to go in the hole in the wall. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Are they not saying there that the wall might not be strong enough to support the weight?<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Well, it still comes down to the same thing in the fact that the damper has to be installed correctly into the supporting construction. If the supporting construction is wrong, that doesn\u2019t really go with the damper because there\u2019s not a lot you can do about that, it shouldn\u2019t have been put there in the first place. The supporting construction in itself probably isn\u2019t wrong. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER I think that\u2019s not very well worded, but I think what it\u2019s getting at is a correct point because what you\u2019re trying to do here is sign post people to not get it wrong. Now, we all know you\u2019ve got to install it correctly, but what people that don\u2019t install dampers might not understand is what that means. So, if any of these things here is wrong then there\u2019s going to be a problem, it will limit the ability. So the construction is important and it\u2019s not just how it\u2019s installed, it is what is there. So, if you try to install it into something that\u2019s just not physically strong enough to take the weight, for example, then you might have installed it correctly in terms of its seals and everything else, but the wall is just not strong enough. So, I think that point could be better worded, but it\u2019s still valid. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Alright, so the supporting construction or ductwork cannot support the SCD. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Risk of inadequate supporting structure. <\/p>\n

GEORGE I agree with the point about the wall not being an important context of this, not simply whether you\u2019ve picked the right damper. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE The other ones are all about the installation, so they\u2019re\u2026before you go into those specifically you just want to put incorrect installation method, which may include one or more of the following. What\u2019s PMC? <\/p>\n

GEORGE If you don\u2019t know, I think we\u2019ll take it out. <\/p>\n

RICHARD The point is about competency of the seal installation, so maybe we need to reword that so that it doesn\u2019t include PMC rather than taking the whole thing out. That needs rewriting. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE The other thing is if they\u2019re a part 3 installer they may not be capable of installing dampers or ducts because ducts and dampers aren\u2019t pipes and cables and therefore they should be installed following the instructions for the damper or the duct, not pipes and cables. And that\u2019s something that happens all the time. we\u2019d reword that risk of the installers competency being limited to, and I\u2019m assuming that that\u2019s 1366 part 3, but should follow the dampers instructions which would be what was tested in part 2. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Is this a general point, or an installation point? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE It\u2019s an installation point. <\/p>\n

RICHARD There is a section underneath it on installation. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE The point is if you install it to part 3, it\u2019s wrong. I think PMC is possibly penetration something contractor.<\/p>\n

GEORGE Yeah, I just Googled it and there is a range of different things, project management competency, it\u2019s a competency framework, I think. <\/p>\n

RICHARD Now we\u2019re looking at risk of human intervention on ancillary assets, such as smoke detectors, impacting on asset performance. So we need to look at those 6 or 7 including that down to materials. Any comments on that? <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER I guess what we\u2019re really saying there is if someone disconnects a fire alarm\u2026it\u2019s things like that, it breaks with the system. The comment that Colin has made there, which is one we picked up on Monday, about AOVs and smoke control dampers and the use of terminology of words. It\u2019s such a big issue, we just use a generic term when we should be using a specific term and a smoke control damper is very, very specific and arguably a subset of a generic term like AOV. And I don\u2019t know how we capture that because you know when something becomes widely used badly, it causes confusion.<\/p>\n

RICHARD Let\u2019s move down to materials. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER What does excessive water damage mean? What you\u2019re saying is if you\u2019ve got a building that has a hole in the roof it might compromise the equipment because it all got damaged. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Or there\u2019s been a fire and it\u2019s been sprayed a lot with hoses. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Well, they\u2019re different things, and operation under fire when it might get shot with a hose is obviously\u2026<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I think this is in terms of fixing it after something has happened to it. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER It just seems like a strange comment because if the building has fundamentally got some issues, like it\u2019s not\u2026how far do we go on this? Every asset is susceptible to the building being trashed by water because no one fixed the roof or all the windows were smashed in. <\/p>\n

RICHARD I can remember this, and it was about leaks. <\/p>\n

GEORGE I think that was more about cavity barriers and things. I\u2019m concerned that we may be drifting here. <\/p>\n

RICHARD OK, take that out, Jiss. Installation. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER The problem with installation is that it wasn\u2019t installed right in the first place because they didn\u2019t know what they were doing, so the first one on the list should be that. <\/p>\n

GEORGE Paul, Stephen and Paul McSoley from Mace, and the Passive Fire Group, they\u2019ve been looking at the decision trees that people take when they\u2019re selecting certain types of products. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE (shares screen). This is all the things that you should need to consider.<\/p>\n

GEORGE The critical thing here is that it\u2019s the product selection and the many different elements that you need to be aware of when you\u2019re actually picking the product. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE That\u2019s right. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Is this available to everybody? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I can check, Ian, and if we can we\u2019ll get it sent round. I\u2019m not sure how far Paul\u2019s got with this one and he\u2019s being a bit careful. <\/p>\n

GEORGE But Ian, if you wanted to review it and contribute to it I\u2019m confident that Paul McSoley would be receptive to that. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE It\u2019s all public domain, essentially, however we\u2019re just not quite right on every single page because you\u2019ll see there\u2019s quite a few sheets with different stuff. Anyway, we\u2019ve got all the things that go with the classification, we\u2019ve got 2 position, 3 position, sizes, flow rates, powering, zoning, cause and effects, UKCA. Then you\u2019ve got installations in flexible symmetricals, deflection heads, aperture hole 3 or 4 sides, has it been tested in a 3-sided arrangement, is the supporting construction compatible with the damper you\u2019ve selected, sufficient access both sides. And then we go into rigid walls, the same list of things, and then floors compatible with various different bits and pieces, VE HOD etc. If you notice that basically we\u2019ve got a hundred questions depending on where everything fits in. <\/p>\n

GEORGE Just to put this in context for people that are on the call who are maybe in asset management or doing safety case reviews, they won\u2019t be going down to this level of detail, but what they might do is want this as evidence that the right product has been selected at the right time. We\u2019re not trying to boil the ocean here, we\u2019re trying to have some sort of methodology that can be used, and quite frankly this is the type of content that could be used by AI to be able to advise people on what products should be considered, so filtering it down. Could you go to the flow chart tab? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE This gives you a rough idea of all the questions you need to be asking and designing in before you actually make a selection So, you\u2019re looking at whether you\u2019ve got to look at integrity, insulation, multiple zones, single compartments, and then you come onto this level about selecting which product. Then you need to look at fire strategy to see how long it\u2019s got to last, then you\u2019ve got to look into how you mount it. <\/p>\n

GEORGE If anybody is interested in this, if you put your name in the chat that you want to get involved in the process. Basically there are three elements that we want to pick up on this for each of the asset types. There\u2019s a group that\u2019s going to be looking at data, another that\u2019ll be looking at process, and the other one is application. So, if you\u2019re willing to spend an hour or so on another session with other people who are subject matter experts on the areas then you\u2019d be very welcome. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Just to make a quick point, there\u2019s two things. This will be ideally going ahead, the issue that I\u2019m sure people on the call will probably have is what have I got now and am I going to get this information, and the simple answer is probably no and that\u2019s where you need to be a bit careful. But hopefully, moving forward, then you will have all of this information.<\/p>\n

GEORGE But the reason I brought that up, this is available to you (what Jiss is showing you here now). A lot of the thinking that\u2019s gone into this has then been a part of what Paul has just been showing you going forward. So, it\u2019s a partway step. <\/p>\n

RICHARD So, this is the last bit. Has anybody got anything they disagree with or want to add on? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I think there\u2019s a few things that might apply to fire dampers which don\u2019t necessarily apply to smoke dampers, or they might be slightly different. I haven\u2019t seen this before, if you want to send it to me I\u2019ll spend a little but of time editing it and sending it back. <\/p>\n

RICHARD That would be very helpful, thank you. OK, let\u2019s move down to question 2. We\u2019re taking a slightly different approach, primarily on question 2 which is information based. <\/p>\n

IAIN DONCASTER Can I ask a question, base material, does it matter what it\u2019s made out of? Because if it\u2019s passed the test it\u2019s passed the test. <\/p>\n

STEPHEN GORE I guess it depends on the environment it\u2019s being installed in.<\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER But then that\u2019s the previous bit about installation. <\/p>\n

GEORGE No, this is from an asset management point of view, you might want to know whether it\u2019s galvanised steel or whatever. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE This was from George\u2019s presentation, this is almost like the COBie data which is if you needed to replace something you would want to know what material it was made out of. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Well, wouldn\u2019t you just want to know what the specification was? Knowing that it\u2019s made out of galvanised steel as opposed to some other material isn\u2019t gonna tell you anything about whether the specification is useful or fit for purpose, is it? <\/p>\n

GEORGE The specification would be ideally also provided. What we\u2019ve discovered already is that the specification information is often very difficult to get hold of. So, this is just standard asset management information. You might not want to know it, Ian, from a carbon perspective, for example. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER If you\u2019ve got the \u2018what has been installed by whom and when\u2019, doesn\u2019t that actually tell you the answer you want to know? Because that\u2019s the only thing you want to know. What is type telling us in this section? <\/p>\n

GEORGE Are there different types of smoke damper? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE There\u2019s probably two: wall mounting and duct mounting. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER But, the bullet points - I don\u2019t understand how the bullet points relate to the type.<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I suppose the last one is does it need servicing and maintenance.<\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER What\u2019s that got to do with the type? Everything needs service and maintenance. <\/p>\n

GEORGE No, not at all, certain items don\u2019t need maintenance, certain do. It may be that all smoke control dampers need maintenance, but they may need different types of maintenance. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yeah, if you follow 9999 there\u2019s a whole set of details on maintenance for daily, weekly, monthly etc. Anyway, we digress. I\u2019ll have a look through that as well if you send me the document. <\/p>\n

GEORGE Josephine, as someone doing surveys and safety case inspections and things, looking at it from that perspective just to see if there is any information you would need to know about a smoke damper. <\/p>\n

JOSEPHINE BAKULYOWA I\u2019ve just come back onto the call, so I don\u2019t know what the question is really. <\/p>\n

GEORGE OK, so we\u2019re trying to understand what information you, for example, as a safety case surveyor, would want to know about smoke control dampers apart from where they are, what the model is, who installed it etc. <\/p>\n

JOSEPHINE BAKULYOWA I\u2019d like to know the history of how it\u2019s been serviced, if it\u2019s tested annually with cause and effects. It\u2019s very important for how it\u2019s been maintained and if, for example, they\u2019re installing screws or parts, what type of parts are they installing and are they compatible with the smoke damper, just like fire doors where they say the screws are very important. And you find a lot of contractors come in with their own ideas and they say I\u2019m gonna fix it this way, whether it\u2019s been tested, after it\u2019s been worked or maintained, who is taking a close look because that can effect the way it works in the effect of a real fire. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I think that what you\u2019re actually looking at is the history of fire inspections, maintenance, cleaning, non-compliances, the fixing of non-compliances and actions taken to prevent recurrence. All the normal qualities, but the issue is going forward all this stuff may well be happening, but at the moment it quite possibly isn\u2019t. So, it\u2019s very difficult to get any of this information because a) people don\u2019t know they should have been doing it and also it\u2019s the quality of the information of the people who have been doing it. So, if somebody said we\u2019re a fire damper inspector and we inspected smoke control dampers you might as well throw that report away because the smoke control dampers should be inspected in line with the smoke control system, not just the product. And if somebody shows you a fire damper inspection with a hundred dampers on it and it\u2019s take 2 days to do it, it\u2019s probably not right. <\/p>\n

SCOTT FENTON I didn\u2019t see testing and commissioning on there, I don\u2019t know if that needs to be covered. We did put in a smoke damper system, we had to make sure that the duct work was safely protected, so if it was really hot and people touch it it needs to be protected. That\u2019s not the damper, that\u2019s the system. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yeah, Scott, it is all part of the system and mainly in smoke control systems the duct work should be protected and it comes down to is it installed following the manufacturers instructions in very instance. And if it\u2019s the wrong duct or it\u2019s a smoke control duct it should be insulated, otherwise it is the wrong duct. <\/p>\n

ANTONIO DE SOUSA Just in terms of smoke dampers, in terms of testing them should we not include the asset number which says this is damper 1 of 100, because let\u2019s say you check the smoke dampers and you only find 95. That means that 5 are either missing, you couldn\u2019t find them, or they weren\u2019t installed. So we need some way to say there should be X number of smoke dampers in this building according to the construction requirements. <\/p>\n

RICHARD Absolutely, and also their location, most importantly. <\/p>\n

ANTONIO DE SOUSA Because it\u2019s all fine and well testing the ones you can find, but what are the ones that haven\u2019t been installed or are missing. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Yeah, that\u2019s always the question, the ones you can\u2019t find, or that you don\u2019t even know are there. <\/p>\n

GEORGE We\u2019ve got a section on maintenance as well, so we can come onto that. Any other comments? we\u2019ve got 3 more sections to do so we need to move on. <\/p>\n

RICHARD Section 3, which is what tasks are required to ensure that smoke control dampers are installed, commissioned, inspected and maintained properly. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE In your second green paragraph, air conditioning units are nothing to do with this. What you could do is write that to a smoke control system, so just do an edit\/replace and put smoke control system. And qualified smoke control engineer. <\/p>\n

GEORGE Is there third-party accreditation? And how widely used is that? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yes, there is. There\u2019s, I think, 30 SCA members and 10 non-SCA members of the IFCC SDI19 scheme. <\/p>\n

COLIN WHITE You\u2019re not far out, Paul, I think it\u2019s about 45 specialist contractors now. I\u2019m not sure there is a qualification for a smoke control engineer. We tend to say or recommend that it\u2019s installed by a specialist smoke control contractor, preferably with SDI19. <\/p>\n

SCOTT FENTON That one where it says check base material has been constructed properly I agree with for the first time, but you\u2019re not going to want to do it every single year going forward. Once it\u2019s in and it\u2019s working and it\u2019s good, you wouldn\u2019t expect someone to come in and check\u2026<\/p>\n

RICHARD The point is to ensure they\u2019re installed, commissioned, inspected and maintained, so\u2026Any comments on what\u2019s on the screen right now? So, we\u2019ve got this extract from SFG20. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER Can I just make a comment on that, should we not say competent? Because we\u2019re not saying qualified because there isn\u2019t a qualification. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE That\u2019s why I used accredited because I\u2019m assuming that means a third-party so therefore they should be competent, because the contractor is a company, it\u2019s difficult to\u2026if you\u2019re accredited they should be checking your competency. Change it to accredited and competent then. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER You could be competent but being accredited means you go through more of a process, so it should be competent and accredited I would have said. <\/p>\n

RICHARD OK, so we\u2019ve got that SFG20 example. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I definitely need to check that because I\u2019m not absolutely certain about some of the content on the SFG20. <\/p>\n

GEORGE I think the point there is that I don\u2019t think SFG20 has a specific one for smoke dampers\u2026<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE And that\u2019s my issue, George, and I haven\u2019t actually been through the part for fire and smoke dampers either, so I would reserve a bit of judgement on that. <\/p>\n

GEORGE The reason I\u2019m suggesting it, though, is because that is what 80% of the industry will be using as their means of maintaining any damper.<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yeah. The point is that that\u2019s had no input from anybody outside of BESA. <\/p>\n

RICHARD So maybe that should actually be in the appendix as information as opposed to being in the main body of the text which is a recommendation.<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE For a start, it says fire smoke dampers and that\u2019s wrong and it needs to be changed.<\/p>\n

GEORGE Is there an equivalent one that you could provide that is a set of maintenance instructions that are like this? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I can provide a shorter one because it\u2019s in EN1565O and I think there\u2019s also some in one of the other BESA things, but again, it still refers to fire and smoke dampers\u2026all the documentation is leapfrogging itself, and some of the information is out of date, so I don\u2019t know whether the content of this is correct and up to date or what has maybe been missed out of it, because some of these documents are written in a different way from a different perspective. <\/p>\n

COLIN WHITE You mustn\u2019t lose sight of the fact that the predominant requirement should be that maintenance should be to the manufacturers requirements. You have different materials with dampers, you\u2019ve got galvanised sheet metal blades, calcium silicate blades, so you can\u2019t just chuck an industry standard maintenance instruction, the emphasis has got to be on the manufacturer\u2019s requirements. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER We\u2019ve got this learning point here that again people think that smoke control dampers are fire dampers and they\u2019re not, and we\u2019ve got to be very clear that smoke control dampers are not fire dampers and they\u2019re not fire smoke dampers, they are a different product.<\/p>\n

RICHARD Question 4: competency: what level of competency training needs to be in place? We\u2019ve not got too much there. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER One of the issues that you can get in the industry is you\u2019ve got a competent person installing a damper, but they\u2019re installing to a structure that is built by someone else. So as a smoke control system installer you don\u2019t have direct control over what\u2019s been built. Now, obviously we\u2019d want to check that and verify that it was right and we\u2019d issued drawings and it\u2019s done to that, but you do get a slight divide in that the person that\u2019s actually done it, the main contractor or a builder or some sort of plasterboard installer. So, the question about, there is a gap there that is a problem for the whole of the industry. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE If you look at all the information from Paul McSoley and what we\u2019re doing in various areas, we\u2019re trying to overcome that because we\u2019re trying to make it very clear that the design includes the wall because if it doesn\u2019t then literally you can\u2019t select anything that goes through it. So, you can\u2019t sort out penetration seals for pipes and cables, you can\u2019t sort out fire doors, you can\u2019t do anything. We\u2019re working on that, but it\u2019s gonna take a long time, Ian. We\u2019re looking at once you\u2019ve decided what the risk is and the space then you need to decide which wall it is, and then when the wall is there everybody can go off and select the dampers. But, that\u2019s the bit that needs to change. <\/p>\n

RICHARD Let\u2019s focus on the questions and have a look through those and see if there is anything glaringly missing or needs changing.<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE I think the second one from the end might be difficult. I don\u2019t know at the moment how people are demonstrating their competence. They can demonstrate experience, but they can\u2019t demonstrate competence and they can demonstrate training, but not necessarily competence. Anybody who is third-party accredited, you\u2019d expect that from, but I don\u2019t know that anybody is doing it in that way at the moment because it\u2019s very difficult because there\u2019s no qualifications available. <\/p>\n

RICHARD This document isn\u2019t the status quo or the state of play, this document is this is what we should be striving towards. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yes, I understand that, I\u2019d just be careful for what you ask for making a statement like that. <\/p>\n

GEORGE Should we say an element of experience then, instead of competence? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE No, because this is the problem because they do need to demonstrate competence, but I\u2019m not sure that just by holding an SDI 19 certificate means that that\u2019s the case. So, get rid of that one and just leave the next one. <\/p>\n

SCOTT FENTON Can I comment on the second point and the last point. Someone mentioned earlier about the building, but the person installing it assessing the suitability of the base material, that\u2019s quite challenging. The person doing the install might not know anything about wall linings or floors they\u2019re going through, they\u2019ve got a hole to either go through or they\u2019ve got nothing where a wall has to be built around later. And then the last point is saying should as opposed to must. No disrespect to who wrote it, it sounds a bit wooly. The second point is saying they must be competent, and when it gets down the person doing it should be competent.<\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Scott, the issue is standard speak. So, in British standards should means must and in European standard speak shall means must. I think e either need to stick to one or the other and we probably need to put a note at the start to say should means must. <\/p>\n

GEORGE It\u2019s interesting that the Europeans use the English language more correctly than we are, because should doesn\u2019t mean must, shall does mean must. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yeah, but the point is if you really like to get picky it\u2019s I shall and we shall and the other one is will. So, you will and he will, it doesn\u2019t work either. <\/p>\n

RICHARD Anybody not happy now with those on the screen? OK, we\u2019ll move on to question 5. How are the changes from one product to another recorded? So, it\u2019s change management. <\/p>\n

GEORGE I think one of the key things here is initially, and it\u2019s been very clear over the last year or so, people are still not recording what\u2019s getting installed. In the BIM models that people are producing, they\u2019re not identifying a smoke damper, for example. They\u2019re placing, in many cases, a generic object, it doesn\u2019t have to be a product, but they\u2019re not adding a proper category or a proper classification against something and therefore what we\u2019re not doing adequately is recording where things are installed. So, for the people that are no the call, would you agree that\u2019s important? <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE From the BIM point of view it\u2019s absolutely critical that what\u2019s installed is recorded. The issue is if you look through specifications, and I get a lot of specifications that I look through, I see that they\u2019re using motorised fire smoke dampers in a basement and they\u2019ve got to be smoke control dampers. But it doesn\u2019t matter, they won\u2019t change the specification and therefore if they don\u2019t change the specification they they\u2019re highly unlikely to change the model, because they still think that they\u2019re right. This is the problem they don\u2019t understand that it\u2019s an FD, an NFD or an SCD, they still think with smoke control dampers you need to have the word motorised. You don\u2019t because they have to be motorised, and it\u2019s very difficult. We\u2019re working hard as an industry to have FD, NFD and SCD, just to make sure that everybody knows it\u2019s the same thing. In terms of as-built, I don\u2019t actually know with regards to basements who\u2019s in control of the design of the basement system and whether they even pull it all together so it exists as one document, because it gets let as separate contracts and stuff like that, but it can be quite difficult. <\/p>\n

SCOTT FENTON My query was it\u2019s all about change at what point are we talking about change? Because I\u2019m an architect, a design manager and I work on projects at Heathrow. So, we could have change during a design period, we could have change when the design is finalised but then the installer can\u2019t purchase the products and has to make a change. And then you could have change when a product is installed and it\u2019s changed later. And they\u2019ve probably all got implications, so I don\u2019t know if the question is specific to once it\u2019s installed or the other two scenarios. <\/p>\n

GEORGE It\u2019s all of those, Scott. <\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER I was picking up a similar point to Scott in that we\u2019re talking about change, it might be that someone\u2019s specified a product and you actually install a different product and then you\u2019ve got to make sure obviously that the product is fit for purpose and the reason that you\u2019ve change it. Because if you go back to Grenfell when cladding was changed and the reasons for it weren\u2019t there. The same thing applies here that if you\u2019ve changed the product because it\u2019s a different specification\u2026performance, or whether it\u2019s just a different size and it won\u2019t fit or whatever. And the as-built is obviously fundamentally the most important thing and that that final as-built thing is correct. So, that\u2019s the information we need to be collecting here on this schedule of change. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE And potentially now on an HRB post gateway 2 if you change something you\u2019re going to have to send it back up to the building safety regulator to get them to approve it. And they\u2019re going to approve it in 12 weeks which is a waiting period that people aren\u2019t going to want to stick with. So, this part is very important.<\/p>\n

IAN DONCASTER That only comes down to getting you design sorted at an early stage, which sadly people rarely seem to do. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE Yeah, and I haven\u2019t seen any change in that yet. <\/p>\n

GEORGE Well, we are starting to see that, Paul we\u2019re starting to see main contractors refusing to go forward with projects because the design isn\u2019t adequately complete when they\u2019re being asked to take it on. <\/p>\n

PAUL WHITE If you\u2019re actually seeing that now, then great, because I literally had one on my desk where the design information is so poor in this area, I wouldn\u2019t take the job. <\/p>\n

GEORGE Yeah, Balfour Beatty have told us that they\u2019ve done that already on one or two projects. If anybody\u2019s interested in that particular topic put \u2018change\u2019 into the chat, because I think we\u2019re going to do something across the different asset types around how we can record change. <\/p>\n

RICHARD OK, so I think what we\u2019ve got here is pretty comprehensive, actually. Anything anybody wants to add? OK, that\u2019s good, and we\u2019re nearly out of time. Just to repeat what George just said about putting in the chat, if you\u2019re interested in getting involved in the change work put \u2018change\u2019 in he chat. If you\u2019re interested in getting to the information element, the actual data itself, the application of that data or process. Put one of those three or more into the chat and we\u2019ll be moving on that as soon as we\u2019ve finished these roundtables in a couple of weeks. <\/p>\n

GEORGE So, did people think this has been a useful exercise? Because obviously we\u2019ve all given up 1 1\/2 hours of our time for which we\u2019re very grateful, but like I said at the beginning, we\u2019re all volunteers so we obviously want to try and make sure this is delivering some value for people. <\/p>\n

ADDENDUM<\/strong> <\/p>\n

CHAT <\/p>\n

Colin White<\/strong><\/p>\n

It should be acknowledged that an SCD is part of a SHEV system You should not just consider it in isolation<\/p>\n

Ian Doncaster \u2013 FASS<\/strong><\/p>\n

Risk of inadequate supporting structure<\/p>\n

Colin White<\/strong><\/p>\n

consider not using AOV when relates to SCD's. SCD can certainly open automatically but in SHEV systems an awful lot of them are required to Close.<\/p>\n

You also might need the cosh information if calcium silicate dampers for example<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div><\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

SMOKE DAMPERS BIM4HOUSING ROUNDTABLES 22-06-2023 RICHARD This is meeting is to upgrade, make in line with the building safety and fire safety acts work we did a couple of years ago identifying ways of mitigating risk within 12 fire critical assets. We drilled down very deeply asking 5 questions. This was not a static document,…<\/p>\n

Read More<\/span>+<\/i><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-459","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nSMOKE DAMPERS BIM4HOUSING ROUNDTABLES 22-06-2023 - BIM4Housing Fire Safety<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/bim4housing.com\/fire-safety\/smoke-dampers-bim4housing-roundtables-22-06-2023\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"SMOKE DAMPERS BIM4HOUSING ROUNDTABLES 22-06-2023 - BIM4Housing Fire Safety\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"SMOKE DAMPERS BIM4HOUSING ROUNDTABLES 22-06-2023 RICHARD This is meeting is to upgrade, make in line with the building safety and fire safety acts work we did a couple of years ago identifying ways of mitigating risk within 12 fire critical assets. 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