RICHARD …Definitely fire safety signage, and I see what you mean on that.

PAUL BRAY Most fire safety signage is green, that’s what you\re looking at, the escape signs and your fire door signs are warnings about keeping doors closed. I think we need to be careful about where we’re going…

RICHARD I think you’re right, and slips, trips and falls would be a health and safety issue, not a fire issue.

PAUL BRAY In my opinion, if you haven’t addressed that obviously in the event of an emergency people will slip over, but you should have already addressed that in your first attempt at your health and safety assessment of the building.

GEORGE Andy Cunningham, what would your take on this be?

ANDY CUNNINGHAM I just think it’s such a vast arena and we could get dragged into it all day long. There are so many pictorial references to hazards, it’s almost like we need to get a generic understanding of where we’re at and what we’re trying to achieve. From your slips, trips and falls elements, just from that alone would you identify that on your escape route? Yes you would, if there was a hazard to health or a potential slip, trip and fall. But we’ve also got to be mindful to not over sign, ever signing then renders a sigh blindness. We’re going to look at signage as being quite discrete, but equally satisfying the requirements of the current direction.

We could go down that rabbit hole, as Paul said, because there are thousands and thousands of signs and if you identify everything within that building you’re not going to have any recognition of anyone taking any notice of them signs. So I think you’ve got to look at the hazard, as Jim mentioned, especially on the chemical element, especially on construction sites, very important to identify a hazard under a cost? 2mins 19secs regulation. So you’ve got to determine the risk within the environment. I always say to my guys you’ve got to understand and feel the building and I also think that’s very important.

RICHARD So we’re focusing on fire safety, so we need to be very tight on our definition of fire safety.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Absolutely. But equally you’ve got lots and lots of sins that encroach onto fire safety, especially chemical hazards.

RICHARD Sure. we have to be careful we don’t get diverted by those.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Absolutely. And that’s why you’ve got to understand what we’re trying to achieve, are we trying to achieve escape route signing or fire safety or evacuation. I had a discussion with Jim last night about invacuation, we haven’t mentioned that, the elements of a potential terrorists attack. You’ve got loads and loads and loads of things to consider, but Jim was right in what he said about looking at the understanding of what we\re trying to achieve. We must look at that as a first, whether that comes out of the risk assessment and unfortunately we haven’t got great risk assessors. We’ve got to take our own knowledge, our own guidance and determine what we need to do within that built environment and we can only do that in one building at a time. We can’t put a generic signage strategy across the board, and I know were trying to achieve a lot of that here today, but there are so many variable factors within a building when we’re trying to sign it out.

JOHN FIELD One consideration, the directional arrows, if it’s pointing down as you step through a door that denotes that you’ll need to make your way down beyond that point. If it points up then you go straight ahead, so that will, perhaps, prevent slips, trips and falls. And also are we looking at fire equipment as well, not just escape signage, but are we looking at fire equipment, obviously the red signs as well, is that what we’re considering?

JIM CREAK Can I just butt in on two things. One is that we’ve still got to deal now with the ned legislation that deals with us making sure the information for fire and rescue, and fire and rescue needs to be able to identify the sorts of hazards that I was talking about within fire safety as a generic group. The other thing, about arrows above doors, they should always be pointing up, meaning you go straight through here, that’s the proper international convention fort moving forward. There’s never a direct slip, trip or fall problem if you go down because you don’t go from the door down immediately, there is always a landing or a step, and if that needs to be identified as a trip, slip or fall problem then the step needs to he identified suitably when you go through the door, so the arrow convention for straight on is pointing up and always has been for everything: public information, road traffic, everything is pointing up for forward and straight on from here.

RICHARD OK, so what we’re going to do is leave slips, trips and falls in there on the basis of Jim says about being relevant to firefighters. Let’s go down to question 1b. To what risks are fire safety sighs themselves susceptible?

GEORGE So what do people do to them to stop them from working? I think smoke logging, as Andy has explained to me, is one of the critical areas.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Yeah, smoke logging is obviously very evident of what happened in Grenfell and some conversations I’ve had previously is potentially if you’ve got a singular stair core and it smoke logs you’re proverbially in trouble. But then that’s why you must define your own risks within the building and if there is ever a potential for that to happen, this is where I always say about plan B, then you define that risk and perhaps you would encourage a safety way guiding system within. If you think that, you’ve got plenty of borrowed lighting in the stair core and the signage is signed out adequately. There’s lots of conversations that we have in the industry about signage heights, I know the code states from 1,7 up to 2 metres, but I’ve never put a sign at 2 metres unless it’s at the head of a door and it’s as near to the head of the door as is practicable, ti would always be at 1.7.

RICHARD Lets get back to the question, to what risks are fire safety signs susceptible? What can be done to then that will stop them working properly?

GEORGE Lack of daylight.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Or lack of lighting. I wouldn’t say lack of daylight, I’d say lack of lighting because in lots of buildings you haven’t got any daylight.

ANA MATIC All major escape routes will have lit fire signage, that’s the law. I think we just need to be careful not to be trying to fix things that by nature of if they’re properly installed they should work. The risk really is if anyone is making amendments to the layout and not actually then updating the lit.

JIM CREAK I think you’re being very specific to escape route signs, there are loads of signs that do not have a separate luminaire. They get their visual recognition from external illumination and there are a huge number of non-maintained escape rout signs as well that need to be illuminated under normal conditions. So I think we shouldn’t feel that all escape rout signs are actually internally illuminated.

GEORGE Especially if they fail.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM That’s a great point that Ana makes, the fact that from a design application that all fire safety signs should be adequately illuminated in a power failure.In my experience, none are. Some of the buildings that I visit are absolutely disgraceful in their application. You’ve got ? 10mins 24secs signage identifications on back-illuminated signage, static signage, PVC white signage and it is a car crash of installations out there.

RICHARD Question 2: What information is needed about fire safety signage to ensure they perform as required? Have a quick look at that, anything contentious or missing?

SIMON COLLERY Are they something that would have an asset number, a unique identifier?

JIM CREAK Yes, if the golden thread is in arrangement, it should.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Manufacturer would be debatable for me. There's so many signs without the manufacturer's detail on it. I agree that there should be a manufacturer logo on a sign to satisfy the requirements of its manufacturer. I know number3 is the manufacturer, you’ve got on the list there, you’ve covered it but I’ve seen so many signs without a manufacturer name.

JOHN FIELD Do they need brail, is this something that should be on a fire safety sign, but isn’t there?

JIM CREAK With all due respect, if you expect brail on escape route signs at 1.7 metres and 2 metres you really do expect the…

JOHN FIELD Aren’t we talking about fire equipment signs as well, or not?

JIM CREAK Well, would we really expect the clinically blind to fight fires?

JOHN FIELD Not necessarily, but they could identify what the sign is, perhaps.

PETER THORNS I don’t know if they could find the sign, to be fair.

JIM CREAK Well, again, we did discuss this at international and domestic level at great length with the RNIB and they profoundly said that it would be only as a final last resort that someone with partial sight may want to intervene.

PETER THORNS The thing that you seem to be missing is any information on testing.

GEORGE Yeah, there\’s very little in terms of information on this.

RICHARD Can I explain that. When we did the roundtables before one of the pieces of guidance was fire safety signs and lighting and it was determined that obviously they should be split up, so they were. So the information we have from that meeting was obviously split in two. So this is actually not just a review, it’s also putting some meat on the bare skeleton of bones we got from the last meeting.

JIM CREAK Can I just add in there durability characteristics because there are standards for the manufacturer of safety signs that would be information that you would ask. Durability characteristics and performance. Can I just ask why that’s crept in as anything different from fire safety signs? The last one, wayfinding signage. What’s so different about that than the rest of the stuff, because again, this is where I had a problem yesterday…

RICHARD Jiss, that’s just a note from the chat, it shouldn’t be on this document.

PAUL BRAY The only reason why I raised it is because you were talking about wayfinding signage. The signage for firefighters is a little bit different than the signage for escape because it’s about identifying which floor they’re on, where the flats are and there’s a description on the sign…

JIM CREAK No, it’s not any different, it’s all the same. It’s a risk assessment based requirement.

PAUL BRAY I promise you it’s not, and we can agree to disagree over this, but I’ve been involved in putting all this wayfinding signage in six of my high-rise blocks that I manage, and it’s completely different.

JIM CREAK Well, I actually wrote the stuff on wayfinding for the Scottish building regulations. I do agree that it is a requirement because of how it was actually brought in.

GEORGE What would be helpful, Paul, is that if you could identify any specific attributers, because what we’re really trying to do here is understand what attributes need to be recorded against the sign that we can then audit. So would, for example, the height of the…testing is also required. If we can change that to when it was last tested, Jiss.

RICHARD Yes, that’s the right context then. When was it last tested.

JOHN FIELD One element of the wayfinding is that it has to be contrasting colours and it has to be a certain type of font.

GEORGE Before we move off that, do we need to know whether it’s battery powered? There’s a range of different things there that suggest to me that we need information about signage. A lot of these are battery powered, so do we need to know what type of battery it is?

PETER THORNS If it’s internally illuminated you’ll have to know that it is, so you’’l have to know that it contains a battery and to know they type of battery and the manufacturers recommended replacement regime.

JIM CREAK I think that when it was last tested is totally acceptable because you’re leading people to think that fire door keep shut signs need a battery.

GEORGE Does it contain a battery?

JIM CREAK Well, when was it last tested? I think that’s the most important consideration. Everything needs testing for efficacy, it all requires maintenance.

GEORGE Are all batteries the same?

JIM CREAK we’re talking about escape route signs only here, George.

GEORGE No, we’re not, we’re talking about fire signage.

JIM CREAK Yeah, but we don’t have battery operated fire location signs.

GEORGE Ah, OK, fair comment. So there’s no batteries involved in this.

JIM CREAK We’ve done it all in emergency lighting anyway.

RICHARD Let’s move down to question 3. What tasks are required to ensure fire safety signage is installed, commissioned, inspected and maintained properly?

GEORGE So the principle behind this isn’t to use SFG20 particularly, it was to give an example of a work instruction that could be followed. Does anybody have anything to contribute on that?

JIM CREAK Well again, it’s specifically to do with electrical signs and the majority of this is to do a visual check. But that BESA is specifically for back-illuminated signs.

GEORGE Is it, fine.So we’re saying there is no tasks required to…so there’s no guidance in terms of, other than just saying you need to look at it visually, you’re saying there is no check that needs to be done.

JIM CREAK That’s right, George, because the standard actually says that the sign is no good unless it can be seen. so it’s very simple.

GEORGE So as long as you can see the sign…

JIM CREAK And understand it. Yes, that’s perfect.

RICHARD Surely at the most basic level for someone to install it they’ve got to know where it’s got to go. It’s got to be specified…basically all that stuff that we do for everything needs to be done for this because it hasn’t been done.

GEORGE Yeah, so maintenance is probably a red herring here.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM I believe it’s the competence to do so. So you’ve got to look at the competence, the conformance and the compliance of the sign, making sure that it’s fit for purpose and understanding what I was saying before about what you’re trying to achieve. Your competence elements of the installation process and then after handover you can have a maintenance element and even if it’s wiping it over once a year with a damp cloth to get rid of the dust if it’s in a dusty environment, that’s pretty much it. I have lots of conversations with building safety managers, there’s an element, and we touched on it earlier, of antisocial behaviour, people taking them off the walls and then there is a duty of care to replace them accordingly. Then I think as far as a static safety sign is concerned, once it’s installed, once it conforms, once you give your client your golden thread of information in the areas that it has been installed i.e. a drawing, going back to what Paul was saying on the Approved document B elements of it, we do two different drawings. We do a BS5499-4.

GEORGE The thing is, Andy, we’re going to cover competence on the next question.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM OK. I believe competence should be in this section as well. We’re asking about…

GEORGE No, no, the next one talks specifically about competence. What this is is what information do you need to ensure that it gets installed properly and commissioned properly.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Then that’s very simple, the code and standard, because it tells you where to install it and how to install it. You’re looking at BS5499 Part 4 and Part 10.

RICHARD OK, what level of competency training needs to be in place? Andy, this is what you were talking about, in terms of the installation.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Absolutely. So the competence elements of it, has training been undertaken, have you cross-referenced your training against the code and standard.

GEORGE Are there any third-party accreditations for signage?

ANDY CUNNINGHAM I wouldn’t have said so, ordinarily. Jalite offered good training modules back in the day for installation and product selection and product positioning.

GEORGE That’s not third-party, is it?

ANDY CUNNINGHAM No. Not accordingly, it was led by a manufacturer, but equally very important in the process of knowing where your sign goes, why it goes there and the application, and the correct application of the correct sign.

JIM CREAK I think the British Fire Consortium and the Independent Fire Equipment Association have run course as third-party.

GEORGE But that’s training, not accreditation.

~JIM CREAK Well, there is an examination, so I presume it’s an accreditation. I would imagine that it’s very simple to start up if there’s a demand. I know the FIA considered it but there was lack of demand. I think a document like this would enhance something. I know that the other fire association, the alarm one that’s similar to FIA, also was considering doing an accredited course. So it isn’t bad to put this in.

GEORGE So leave them in there because it’s possible that they will be there. Bex, you’ve put something in that it’s all in ADB, does that reference an earlier point or is it this one?

BEX GIBSON No, it’s that. So all of the training materials would be based on Approved document B so i guess as long as you’re competent at reading Approved document B, that’s what I was saying.

JIM CREAK That’s interesting because is the guidance still being used in ADB, the guidance under the fire safety order? The 9 documents.

BEX GIBSON Yeah, they’re all guidance but they’re based on the standards set out in the Approved documents, so I suppose if you follow the guidance that is a level of competency, but it’s proving that you’ve followed the guidance and you know the guidance though really.

JIM CREAK Unfortunately, it doesn’t show you how to do escape route signs.

BEX GIBSON In what context? I think it defines the best placement of them, but that’s down to the fire strategy of a particular building, isn’t it?

JIM CREAK No, it doesn’t show you at all how to take somebody from a to b in an escape route.

BEX GIBSON Maybe this is going beyond my level of knowledge, I thought it did because I’d based my stuff on that before, but that’s fine.

PAUL BRAY I think there’s some clear guidance around where you could consider putting signage, but the signage needs to be installed in a way that’s not confusing and because sometimes when you’ve got two directions if travel you put two arrows in so people have got to make a choice, you’ve got to make a decision on that. Whenever I’m looking at displaying signage I’d always use an analogy, something like imagine you’re Doctor Who and you’ve just arrived in the middle of a building via your Tardis and you need to find your way out just using signs. Now, if you use that sort of approach you should be able to find your way out of a building just by using the signage. If you can’t find your way out of a building just by using signage then you probably need more signs.

Again, I’ll go back to a point that was made earlier, you don’t want to be plastering your building in signs, with all these signs you’ll get sign blindness, but it’s about having a common sense approach applying the outlined guidance which is the ADB and other guides. What I will say about the other guides is that the guides by the DCLG, that’s about existing buildings, and Approved Document B is about buildings under construction or renovation, so you’ve got to be careful about the way that you interpret or apply that.

JIM CREAK I totally agree with you, Paul, because you have the qualifications to make those judgments. The British Standard obviously takes an assumption that this is the way that you should do it if you don’t know anything. As far as the corridor is concerned, it’s all laid out in Part 4 what you should do under that circumstances. But again, right in the foreword is so clear that you are king in this debate because you’re the risk assessor, as long as what you put down is followed in perpetuity with the golden thread that’s perfectly acceptable because it relies on your competence. But British Standards does cover everything: height, positioning, and the directional meaning of arrows, so that’s all I can defend, you’re much better at doing these things than me because you’re a risk assessor.

PAUL BRAY Thanks Jim. I’m not going to argue with you over the British Standard, but I’ll also point out that I frequently see signs that are wrongly placed, such as you talk about arrow directions and things like that. You’ll look at a final exit sign and you’ll see an arrow above it where it shouldn’t be, it should be just the door shape. So the signage is frequently not necessarily right, however as long as it does the job that’s what I’m looking at from a risk assessment point of view. And I think an enforcing authority will never pick you up on signage that does the job if it doesn’t comply to the letter to the British Standard.

RICHARD OK, let’s scroll down to maintenance, training and competence required. Obviously manufacturers specific. We’ve said that realistically speaking the maintenance side of things is not at the forefront with fire signage. Anybody got anything to say about those?

ANDY CUNNINGHAM I'll potentially say it's not really manufacturer specific because if the sign is on the wall and it satisfies the requirement irrelevant and the manufacturer, I think the manufacturers would all say the same thing, maybe a wipe over with a damp cloth once a year. So the commissioning element of it would be on the handover document that satisfies the requirements. Producing that golden thread of the drawing element is very important and you can reference that against the maintenance regime. So you could quite easily take the drawings, check that against what was as installed and check that against is it still there a year later and if it’s not then you should seek consultation with your installer to provide another sign. But from my point of view, the only thing that really upsets any maintenance or installation element of a signage is antisocial behaviour, not really anything else.

GEORGE Yeah, remember we’re in the competency section here.

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Yeah, absolutely, I’m reading underneath the maintenance element.  I think the competency section would very much form part of the installation elements of training given to your client, if they’re going to look at maintaining their building. I’m dealing with some building safety managers who 10 minutes ago were just auditors and they’re thrust into a high-rise building and supposed to know everything about it, from plumbing, mechanical, electrical, ventilation, all the smoke control elements. Some of these people are not qualified to rally understand that built environment. I’m trying to go back to basics all the time to say understand what you’re trying to achieve in a building and manage and maintain it, in lots of cases it is done, and it lots of cases it isn’t done. So outside of your maintenance comments there I don’t think there’s really a lot to add.

RICHARD How are changes from one product to another recorded? We’re looking at replacements.

GEORGE There’s two elements to it. One is on a new build when maybe an alternative contractor is appointed from what was originally specified. This maybe too complex from a signage point of view. As Andy has explained to me it requires doing properly, but it’s a relatively simple thing. I think you’re right that it probably is going to be more…do people change out? Is this something that does get changed, value-engineered?

ANDY CUNNINGHAM Value-engineered, definitely. A client said to me recently your signage tends to be more expensive than others and I said that’s because I’ll only use a good quality photo-luminescent sign because it adequately illuminates itself in a power failure. But if you go and buy that 50 piece of rubbish off the internet, you need an emergency lighting above everything. There’s a design application for that, what are you trying to achieve, and we can cover all of that, but I think we are overcomplicating the signage element, very technical, I think that’s where Jim comes in because you’ve got to tie up the relevant graphical symbols according to the relevant hazard and all of that is really a minefield of information that there’s some guys in the industry have been working 30-40 years on that and we’ve got that, we’re lucky to have that.

But as far as the signage, the signing element within a building, you’ve just got to understand what you’re trying to achieve. The only reason I think it would change, and we’re changing in lots of them especially on fire action notices, is when it’s reverting from a stay put to a simultaneous evacuation or vice versa, or you’ve got fire marshals in the building. But outside of that you would still record the correct positioning for the escape and evacuation element.

GEORGE OK, so that’s an important point. We need to ensure that it complies with the fire strategy for the building and i suspect that’s not in this section. So you could you add that in, Jiss? To ensure compliance with the current fire strategy for that building.

JIM CREAK You said something very interesting as well, George, about new builds. Very rarely in the design stage is this looked at as an arrangement that then should follow the golden thread because I agree, nothing should change in the lifetime of the building around those strategies and the types and sizes etc regarding the signs are concerned. But very rarely is it dealt with early on for new builds, it’s always an afterthought. And signing and signs follow the same problems as every other specialist contractor, whether the space has been left, whether it’s been considered. I’m thinking about dry risers and wet risers and even security override switches where they’re positioned so that they can easily be located and the sign that differentiates the call point from an alarm call pint can be seen. So there’s a lot of considerations to be done in the design side in new builds.

RICHARD OK, thank you, I think we’ve now covered that document. George, do you want to go into your information data piece?

GEORGE I’ve just looked at the RACI spreadsheet that we started to create and because there’s not very many information points that we’re saying we need, I think potentially that’s a bit overkill. I think the principle thing that we’re saying is that what we’re trying to do is look at any other information that we need to relate to this in three ways. One is to look at things from a point of view of additional data that’s needed. (shares screen). This is what we’re trying to do with all the other asset types, to look at the information from a point of view of who’s responsible for producing it, who’s accountable for it, who needs to be consulted and who needs to be kept informed.

In the case of fire signage that probably is relatively simple for us to do and may well align with the other things that we’re doing. So if you’re interested in continuing the conversation as far as signage is concerned, and in general, we’re very happy to organise a session on this on either data or process or application. Have we really covered it today? Is there anything else we need to be adding in? Or do we think that the guidance we’ve set out here is actually enough?

JIM CREAK There’s a definite need, because I already have architects asking me if BSEN ISO 7010 CD ROM, which is the registered safety signs, can interface with CAD. The answer is yes, it can, but these are not actually safety signs, they’re only the graphical symbols. And as we’ve already discussed the sign board can include a directional arrow and can include supplementary text, so there is a great need for the data to be in BIM so that it can be transferred on to plans. My advice up until now has been to get in touch with your manufacturer of choice, especially in the design stage, and get them to make up a specific spreadsheet that’s machine-readable specifically for you in line with the types of strategy that you do. But for this purposes it needs to be done.

GEORGE Yeah, that’s a really good point that’s been missing and that is the symbols. So what you’re saying is that there are some symbols that we should be including in the information section.

JIM CREAK If you just put the symbols on the drawing then that’s what you’re going to get in the building which is not sufficient. You need the signboard itself and you need a database for those signboards. In RICS, for instance, it’s totally incorrect on the product selector.

GEORGE Is there a standard set of symbols?


GEORGE Can anybody share those standard symbols with me and we can try and create them.

JIM CREAK Go to the ISO site and browse, you can’t download them, you can browse them. Bear in mind nobody will necessarily want to share digitalised product with you…

GEORGE No, I’m not talking about digitalised product, I’m just talking about symbols.

JIM CREAK Well, again, they get printed on a colour printer and then posted up on the wall.

GEORGE Yeah, that’s the physical building, I’m talking about the digital building now. I think that’s what you were referring to. So what I think we need is the symbol for that particular sign actually in the BIM model or on the floor plan.

PAUL BRAT I’ve put a link on there. If you go to the HSE guidance, it’s safety signs and signals, health and safety signs and symbols (regulations 1996). That leaflet gives you examples of all the signs that are…probably not all of them. But there’s a whole list of signs, it talks about the different types of what a prohibition sign is, what a warning sign is, what a mandatory sign is, what an emergency escape sign is. And then further down there's the types of the green signs for escape routes etc.

JIM CREAK There’s five different escape route signs in that L64, none of which conform to any international standard or domestic standard. BS EN ISO 7010 is the international register for safety signs.

GEORGE Do you know if anybody has actually produced those as CAD blocks?


GEORGE OK. We can take a look at doing that.

RICHARD Is there anybody that wants to raise anything about fire safety signs that we haven’t covered?

ANDY CUNNINGHAM I’d like to say, as I stated before, that the minefield that is safety signs have already been designed, that’s the basis of that and gathering that information from a BIM model and having the ability to process that onto your BIM model is very important, but the elements of the signing is relatively simple if you know it. So it’s actually knowing it and I’d like to see a BIM model of someone who’s designed a fire safety signage system, escape rout signage system, onto a BIM model and making sure that information is gathered and is gathered correctly. It’s relatively a simple process to achieve because the likes of JIM on BSI for the last 30 years has done all of our work for us, so it’s just gathering that information, taking that information, whether it’s on a 2D golden thread drawing like we produce or in a BIM model it’s quite a simple process to do. I’ve enjoyed the discussion immensely, but I’m just going to try and take it back to the fact that it is a relatively simple process if you’re competent enough to carry it out.

RICHARD I’ll just reiterate what George has said. If you're interested in digging deeper into the information around the construction process, there are three areas that we’ve got quite a lot of people signed up to already. The first one is data, the second one is process (how the data is used) and the third one is application. So if you want to get involved put your name in the chat and we’ll get back to you over the next few weeks with some dates.

JIM CREAK I just remembered that the company I used to work for, Jalite, do an architects’ package with all the fire safety signs in a spreadsheet that can be downloaded into CAD.



Bex Gibson

Fire Zone Plan

Simon Collery

Can I suggest the various different notices that are to be publicly displayed?










Bex Gibson

Potential access strategy

Paul Bray

I have had a quick scan through this document, and don't see any reference to the regulations or codes of practice which drive the standards. If I was reading this, I would want to see examples of signs and the meaning. For example the information in this link

the fire safety signage does not necessarily identify hazard, fire safety signs are specifically provided to find the way out of building (safely) in the event of fire

Bex Gibson

Language barriers

Simon Collery

Barriers to smooth evacuation is one of the hazards or groups of hazards to be mitigated.

By signage.

Bex Gibson

Not updating (manual process) when something changes strategically within the building

David Linsley

question 1 b - relevant persons don't see them , " visual wallpaper"

Paul Bray

Sorry to go back to this but Wayfinding signage for firefighters is described in ADB vol 1 15.14 and required since January 23rd, 2023, as a consequence of the Fire Safety England Regulations, additional signage for wayfinding is only required for residential buildings with a top storey floor over 11m or more in height.

Thorns Peter

Testing is also required. Will it operate as required. So battery charge indicators of emergency signage or external emergency luminaires to light externally illuminated signs. Full duration testing each year. Battery replacement intervals. Logging of any maintenance performed.

Bex Gibson

It’s a separate legal requirement under fsa

Fire Fighting Signage - These have incredibly specific requirements to be compliant in HRB

Paul Bray

Wayfinding signage for the fire service
15.13 To assist the fire service to identify each floor in a block of flats with a top storey more than 11m
above ground level (see Diagram D6), floor identification signs and flat indicator signs should be
15.14 The floor identification signs should meet all of the following conditions.
a. The signs should be located on every landing of a protected stairway and every protected
corridor/lobby (or open access balcony) into which a firefighting lift opens.
b. The text should be in sans serif typeface with a letter height of at least 50mm. The height of
the numeral that designates the floor number should be at least 75mm.
c. The signs should be visible from the top step of a firefighting stair and, where possible, from
inside a firefighting lift when the lift car doors open.
d. The signs should be mounted between 1.7m and 2m above floor level and, as far as practicable,
all the signs should be mounted at the same height.
e. The text should be on a contrasting background, easily legible and readable in low level lighting
conditions or when illuminated with a torch.

Field, John K

Contrasting colours

Specific font

Bex Gibson

Signage Strategy specific to the building

Field, John K

Height from ground

Bex Gibson

We should hold all component details for all signs

An audit of current provisions

And actions from this

By a competent person

Paul Bray

Going back to the wayfinding for firefighters this is the specification we asked for from the printers - The signs should be located on every landing of a protected stairway and every protected corridor/lobby (or open access balcony) into which a firefighting lift opens. b. The text should be in sans serif typeface with a letter height of at least 50mm. The height of the numeral that designates the floor number should be at least 75mm. c. The signs should be visible from the top step of a firefighting stair and, where possible, from inside a firefighting lift when the lift car doors open. d. The signs should be mounted between 1.7m and 2m above floor level and, as far as practicable, all the signs should be mounted at the same height. e. The text should be on a contrasting background, easily legible and readable in low level lighting conditions or when illuminated with a torch. ONLINE VERSION ONLINE VERSION 106 Approved Document B Volume 1, 2019 edition Building Regulations 2010 B5 15.15 The wording used on each floor identification sign should take the form Floor X, with X designating the number of the storey, as intended for reference by residents. The floor number designations should meet all of the following conditions. a. The floor closest to the mean ground level (see Diagram D4) should be designated as either Floor 0 or Ground Floor. b. Each floor above the ground floor should be numbered sequentially beginning with Floor 1. c. A lower ground floor should be designated as either Floor –1 or Lower Ground Floor. d. Each floor below the ground floor should be numbered sequentially beginning with Floor –1 or Basement 1. 15.16 All floor identification signs should be supplemented by flat indicator signs, which provide information relating to the flats accessed on each storey. The flat indicator signs should meet all of the following conditions. a. The signs should be sited immediately below the floor identification signs, such that the top edge of the sign is no more than 50mm below the bottom edge of the floor identification sign. b. The wording should take the form Flats X–Y, with the lowest flat number first. c. The text should be in sans serif typeface with a letter height of at least half that of the floor indicator sign. d. The wording should be supplemented by arrows when flats are in more than one direction. e. The text and arrows should be on a contrasting background, easily legible and readable in low level lighting conditions or when illuminated with a torch. NOTE: In the case of multi-storey flats with two or more entrances, the flat number should only be indicated on the normal access storey.

Bex Gibson

It’s all in ADB

Simon Collery

I think Paul's distinction between signage for firefighters and signage for evacuees is vital because the risks and hazards would be different, and perhaps other aspects.

Field, John K

BS 1635:1990 applies to Graphical Symbols and Abbreviations. This includes Fire Safety signs.

Paul Bray